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Old 07-12-2005, 03:05 PM
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Painting in pieces. Can I do it?

I understand its probably best to paint everything at once but in my small shop its about impossible.

Here is what I would like to do, but need opinions on what the issues might be. I am painting a car with Concept solid (bright red). There will be no clear.

The car is 100% disassembled and I mean 100%.

What I would like to do is this.

1) Paint the cowl sides, rockers and edge everything else. Window openings, bottom or rear quarters, wheel openings, jambs,tail light area, trunk opening, etc. This allows me on the "correct" overspray I want on the bottom of the car and get the edge work out of the way.
2) Paint the roof, sail skirts and rear quarters and tail light valance.
3) Paint inside of trunk and hood, inside door areas, and edges of front fenders.
4) Paint outside of everything in step 3.

This will be color sanded and buffed so not worried about texture. Just wondering about color changes due to humidity and temperature.

Should I give up on this plan? Any tips if its a workable solution?

This is the best paint forum on the web. I love reading MARTINSR's basics of basics. I think he should PDF them all in one package for use to download and read. Also many other good tips from members as well. Thanks !

Best,

Rich

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Old 07-12-2005, 05:28 PM
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You Shouldnt Have Any Problems Painting It Like That, It Is A Solid Color, And Believe Me, You Will Get A Much Cleaner And Better Looking Job Doing It That Way, Mike.
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Old 07-12-2005, 06:08 PM
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should be fine. if you're going to do it that way , you picked a good color to do it with. just make sure your coverage is the same on all the pieces.
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Old 07-12-2005, 09:26 PM
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Thanks. That is good to hear. I know it has to be edged in pieces but wasnt sure if I could run into problems painting the rest spread out a little.

Well with a little luck it should have some color on parts of it this weekend

Thanks again,

Rich
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Old 07-12-2005, 11:40 PM
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I know this is simplistic but if you keep in mind that the ENTIRE surface (this includes around edges) needs a perfect film of paint over it, you will be fine. It may be overly simplistic but guys make the mistake all the time. I know I have, a beautiful 65 Buick Gran Sport conv I painted many years ago comes to mind. One of the front fenders had a tad less paint on the bottom half as it met the rocker. It was lighter there, darn it, ruined the whole job.

TRIAL FIT ALL PARTS WELL.

Thanks for the kind words regarding my "Basics of Basics" Below is one on trial fitting parts!

Brian
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>

“Basics of Basics” Trial fitting parts
By Brian Martin

There are few procedures that give you more ‘Bang for your buck” than trial fitting parts. Sounds simple, just common sense. However, it is something that comes with very hard learned lessons. Even after doing this work for over twenty five years, I still forget once and a while. When I do, there is a good chance I will pay for it dearly.

Like the fabricators motto “If you don’t have a pile of rejects in the trash, you aren’t doing good work”, the time spent on trial fitting is VERY good time spent.

This trial fitting should include nearly every single part of the car.

When installing a weld on part such as a quarter, trial fitting ALL the adjacent panels is not just something you “should” do, you MUST do it. The decklid, door, rear bumper, window mouldings, etc, should ALL installed and fit well BEFORE your welding is done. At this time a little minor tuning can turn an “OK” job into an outstanding one. You may even find the need to serious adjustment.

Trial fitting is not holding the part up and saying “yep it fits”. We are talking FULLY bolting the part on. If this is a moving part such as a door or deck lid, the latch should be installed, hinges FULLY bolted on and adjusted. The rubber seals and bumpers should be installed as well. On an older car this is not so easy because many are glued in, but SOMETHING has to be done to insure the part will fit properly when the rubber is installed later.

If you can’t install the rubber at that time at least spend some time looking at where the rubber fits to for a proper gap. For instance, while fitting a decklid to your new quarter (or the other way around, it makes no difference) get in the trunk and close the lid. Inspect around the channel where the rubber fits. Be sure it is a uniform distance ALL the way around. You can usually find the correct distance right where the hinges are. If the panel fits correctly on the outside then that gap for the rubber is usually going to be correct. If you feel for some reason that there is damage to that area, you need to spend some time there. If you feel the car has been hit on the side piller post (if you were fitting the door) you really need insure that the door fits properly and that you KNOW what that rubber gap should be. This gap is usually a uniform distance all the way around, be sure of it. When you are doing a door, you always have the other side to check to guidance remember. When installing a quarter, rear panel, upper panel, this is very critical. You don’t want to find out later that your gap is too small, the lid won’t close properly or sticks up. You don’t want to find out the gap is too large, the rubber may not seal and the trunk leaks water. A little minor shifting of parts prior to welding could take care of it.
You want ALL gaps perfect PRIOR to welding (a little tack here or there may be needed for fitting the parts) there is NOTHING that will tell you this other than FULLY mounting the adjacent parts.

Mouldings:
When doing any plastic filler work (“bondo”) or straightening metal you need to trail fit the mouldings, trim and adjacent parts as well. This is VERY important with parts like fender extensions. I don’t care if they are new/used or the even the same ones you took off the car, AWAYS trial fit them. Don’t leave you new repro parts in the package to install them after paint, you WILL be sorry.

Prior to paint or even primer you can “tweek” these mouldings against the body. After paint, it is much harder because you can scratch it. If there is plastic filler work or metal being straightened this is VERY important. After you have drilled holes for mouldings (Basics of Basics-Templates) bolt the mouldings on for fit.

The cars weight should be on the “wheels” when making these panel adjustments. NEVER fit panels while the car is on jack stands on the frame or on a rotisserie for something like that. You can have the car on jack stands but be sure they are under the rear axle and front control arms to “replicate” the forces of the car on it’s wheels. I don’t even like the under the control arms at all, I put the car on it’s front wheels. The weight transfer is not the same in the middle of the control arms as it is at the point where the tire hits the ground.

I can not stress this enough, trial fitting parts is not because you are a newbe or something. Every experienced body man does it everyday to some degree. Trial fitting is done throughout the entire repair of the car. Nothing could be worse than getting your car back from the painter only to find parts don’t fit!
Just yesterday I was working on 2002 Honda CR-V with a little dent on the quarter right at the edge by the rear gate. I had finished the plastic filler work and was ready to send it to the paint department. I went ahead and installed the new decklid just to be sure it was right, even though this was a very minor repair that should easily be fine. I found out I was a little on the filler work. Now, it wasn’t the end of the world and could have even stayed that way. But with literally only a few minutes, it was perfect. On a very large job lately I found the need to pull the car back up on the frame rack for a little minor repair to where the rubber fits or the door would have been MUCH too tight. Just this little fine tuning made a world of difference to how the door fit.

The moral of the story is don’t ever “assume” your parts are going to fit. I don’t give a darn if they are new, repro, NOS, original, it really doesn’t matter, they MUST be trial fit.

The final assembly of your car should be fun, and relaxing. It is the best part of the whole project. Don’t make it a nightmare, don’t let someone rush you during the earlier phases of the project. Right from the very beginning you are laying the foundation for the finished project. Take the time to do it right.
If you trial fit the parts properly you will never know the pain you saved yourself, but believe me, it was time very well spent.
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Old 07-13-2005, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
I love reading MARTINSR's basics of basics. I think he should PDF them all in one package for use to download and read. Also many other good tips from members as well. Thanks !
Its available here
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Old 07-13-2005, 07:13 AM
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Thanks Dave for the link to the download page and thanks Martinsr for the comments.

As far as panel fit, I should be good there. This was a rust free car to start but had some amateur "pounding and bondo" on the rear quarters so I bought a set of NOS ones and replaced them before I disassembled the car. So quarter to trunk and quarter to door fit is good.

As far as perfect film of paint I am not sure what you are referring to. I assume film thickness?? If so, that gets tougher to maintain when you spray in pieces I guess. Sure I can count the number of coats but is the first week coats heaver than second weeks, etc.

So are you saying on a solid coat like this that if I edge something and as an example I spray over the top of the fender with two or three coats while painting the inside lip of the fender, wet sand the top of the fender to get rid of any overspray texture, then spray the outside of the fender it will show a different tint because of the extra paint where I edged it?

Thanks again,

Rich
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Old 07-13-2005, 08:14 AM
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I am not certain why "edging" in the panels is going to help you. Anytime I paint a part off the car it is to save the time of "jambing" (edging) by painting the whole thing at once, inside and out.

My point is, when you paint a car apart what you do is maybe the doors, inside and out. The fenders, inside and out. The hood and trunk, inside and out. Then the body shell, inside and out. If you don't plan on doing it that way, I would recommend "jambing" it and then assemble the car and painting the outside all at once.

If that is not an option, I HIGHLY recommend covering the outside of the body when you spray the jambs. DO NOT allow overspray to fall out on the outer body. This can cause BIG problems for a number of reasons. First, you end up with a sanded edge from the over spray that your following coats can get under and lift. Second, in sanding this overspray you cut into the primer you worked so hard to keep flat on the outside of the body and could end up with waves. Third, you cut thru the primer and you have to apply more primer or sealer AFTER you have already shot color in the jambs and you end up with an edge on the jamb with sealer or primer being seen.

I am in the middle of a very similar job, my 65 Gran Sport conv. This is a many year restoration and I painted the jambs a couple of years ago. The jambs in the trunk, doors, hood and fenders are all shot. I will now assemble the car and shoot the outside at once. The funny thing is, when I did this the "standard" for me was to jamb, assemble and then paint the outside of every car I did at work. Since then, things have changed and where I work has moved up into the twenty first century. We paint about 90% of cars apart and the assemble them fully painted and buffed (if needed). Today I will be putting together a car I thought I would never be able to do in that fashion, a Chevy S10 Blazer. I have the fenders, hood, rad support, off the car, and will install them fully painted and buffed. The doors are apart and on the car as they were "blend panels" for color match. We have everyone in the shop doing it this way, and it works out pretty well. HOWEVER, the learning curve was STEEP. There were a number of cars that had to get panels repainted because of chips and scratches from assembly early on. But we have got it down pretty good now. I wish I would have painted my Gran Sport this way, I would be done with the car by now (well, maybe ).

If you are going to "Jamb" it first, this is my not so humble opinion:

Have ALL priming on the car (a quality 2K primer) DONE prior to ANY painting. I mean, primed, blocked, reprimed and ready for a 500 sanding and paint. BE sure ALL "surfacing" is done, every single square inch of that car is as good as you want it. You mask the jambs for paint just like the outside is already painted.

If tape off the jambs well, it will look like you painted the jambs at the same time, you can barely tell the difference.
These are a few things I have learned that save a lot of work. First off, when you paint the jambs, apply both color and clear if you are using a bc/cc. Remember, DO NOT let the overspray go out onto the outside! This can cause HUGE problems along with the extra sanding that can be avoided. Unless completely removed, that overspray can ruin you work. The solvents from the paint on the exterior can get under the thin overspray and lift! What you want to do is be sure that the outside is TOTALLY done and READY to be final sanded and painted BEFORE you do the jambs. Now, tape off the outside along the jamb edge with at least 18" paper so you don't get that direct overspray out on the exterior. I tape the paper up to about 1/8" from the edge of the jamb. Then take your tape and "backtape" to the edge. This is when you lay the tape up to the edge on the outside so it is hanging over the edge, then gently fold it back, exposing the jamb but keeping the outside covered right up to the edge. This back taping will make a "softer" edge and be much easier to sand.
Go ahead and paint and clear the jamb, and remove that last tape that is back taped while the clear is still a little wet if you want (not necessary but you could choose to do that) the clear will then flow a little at the edge and leave you will even less of an edge to sand off.
Now when you paint the outside tape off the jambs up to about 1/8" or 3/16" from the edge so the seam won't be seen when the door is closed. Sand the exterior including that little edge left from the jamb paint and do the last little bit of jamb paint up to the new tape line with a gray scuff pad. I even will put that tape a little bit further away (about another 1/16") from the edge and after the scuffing with the gray scuff pad, apply a fine line (the blue plastic tape) tape over that last tape but hanging over the edge onto the new jamb paint that 1/16" bringing the line up to the original desired 1/8" to 3/16" from the edge. This will ensure that your jamb edge doesn't peel.

You could also use "aperture" foam tape that 3M makes. It is a rope made of foam with adhesive on it and is like "back taping" it leaves a "soft" edge.

I can go even more anal for you.
This may not work well in your jambs but if you can open the doors before clearing you could do it. I have found an even better way to all but eliminate that edge. Or if the doors, hood, or trunk are off the car.
Tape off the edge as described with the extra line of fine line tape over the last 1/16" of new jamb paint (this works with when painting up to any paint actually, it doesn't need to be new paint you are painting up to). Then add ANOTHER strip of fine line the same way, over the next 1/16" or 3/32" getting up even closer to the jamb edge. Now, after you paint the color on the outside, you remove that last fine line added BEFORE you clear the exterior. Now, you will be burying the edge of the base coat under the clear! You don't have to do this by any means but it adds to that detail that is almost like you removed the doors to paint. If you did this with a single stage you could remove the first tape after a coat or two and then the last coat will have less of an edge.

I am talking about film thickness, this can make a difference in color. But if you just make SURE there is "even" coverage, you should be ok. Three coats of that color and paint over most any color primer and it should be totally covered. As long as you apply it evenly it is fine. I HIGHLY recommend you spray a few test panels.

Painting a bc/cc is so easy, you have plenty of time on each coat to produce your "perfect overspray", maybe you should go bc/cc?

Brian
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Old 07-13-2005, 10:38 AM
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I am planning on painting my 34 project in two steps, just because apart there are far too many parts to fit in the paint booth.

First phase will be
Front fenders
Radiator deflector
Running boards
Rear fenders
Grill shell
Dash
Window interior moldings
Front window interior garnish

Second phase will be
Body
Both doors
Deck lid
Hood (4 piece)

The entire quantity of paint (PPG DBC) will be mixed with reducer in a container large enough to contain it. Probably first phase (with clear) will be one day with second phase (with clear) the second day. Waddya think BarryK & Martinsr?

Vince
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Old 07-13-2005, 11:09 AM
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302,
From reading your posts I don't think I have ever seen anyone plan out a job like you do.
It sounds good to me.

Almost embarrassed to say this but I get so paranoid about painting in pieces if I get two gallons of base the first thing I do is fill a quart can and mark it match and put it away.
Just in case something is not mixed good enough and a panel shows up different.
Never had to rely on the quart but I even do it with black.

Ok, maybe I do need pills!
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Old 07-13-2005, 11:53 AM
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The only thing I can say 302 is I would put off the window trim and dash for another day. Get all the most important panels painted first.

And most certainly, buy all your paint (no need to reduce it until you are actually spraying) and INNERMIX all cans of color to insure uniformity. Get an extra empty gallon can for this.

Brian
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Old 07-13-2005, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR
The only thing I can say 302 is I would put off the window trim and dash for another day. Get all the most important panels painted first.

And most certainly, buy all your paint (no need to reduce it until you are actually spraying) and INNERMIX all cans of color to insure uniformity. Get an extra empty gallon can for this.

Brian
Sound advice, will do.

Off the top of your head, how much base and clear should I buy? Car is a 34 Ford 3 window coupe, considering 3 coats of base and three coats of clear.

Vince
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Old 07-13-2005, 01:22 PM
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Without spraying the color out in that brand of paint I couldn't say, three coats may not be enough. But A gallon and a half of color and couple of gallons of clearwould be a minimum for me. And with the theory below, that would mean two gallons of color. The thing is, you can always get more clear.

Brian


Exerpt from "Basics of Basics" on choosing color:
Tip 5. After you have your color picked for goodness sakes don’t be a cheapie when buying your paint. Figure out how much you’ll need for the whole job. We are talking every thing you plan on painting, outside, inside, dash, jambs, trunk, everything. When you have an idea how much, add at the very least 20% more. If one gallon is enough, buy another quart. Buy all the paint you will need before you start painting anything. Get a few extra gallon cans and use them to intermix ALL the paint. You then have all the paint you need, no mismatched parts, no running out, you are set to go. If you have a that quart left over when you are done, so what? Running out of paint is NOT pretty, it is a disaster in many cases. Now, why intermix? This is a VERY painful lesson you don’t want to learn the hard way. This is it in a nutshell, if you were to go to the paint store and have three gallons of the same formula mixed you would end up with three different colors! I will bet you a dollar, here is why. Some toners are very strong, just a drip will change the color. A couple of different people could mix them, some people mix better than others. There are other variables such as one toner used gets emptied and the next toner used has more solvent in it because it is new and has less strength. Now, these colors may not be “that” different. If you were to paint three different cars with those gallons you may not even see it. But if you were to paint your hood, fenders, and quarters with the three different gallons you sure would! I repeat, this is a VERY painful lesson you don’t want to have to learn the hard way, BUY ALL YOUR PAINT UP FRONT.
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Old 07-13-2005, 08:02 PM
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Wow this is all good stuff.

Brian, first of all, I never even considered when painting the outside that it would lift my sanded edge from the painted jambs. I have seen that happen when painting many times so I am not sure why I did not consider this.

For me there is little benefit with painting the jambs seperate from the outside surface if I have to tape it off using the backtape method you described.

Little history. This is one of those purist restorations. It is an extremely rare car and although overestored its supposed to look like the factory did it on its best day Very best day.

So right now as the car sits it's on 36" stands I built. I did this so I can overspray this pristine bottom I just finished I want to shoot the rockers (which will get painted black over the body color eventually) and allow the red color to overspray to the bottom. I thought since the car is on stands, I might as well hit the wheel openings, bottom of quarters, and rear tail light openings so I could just concentrate on the outside surface when I got around to painting the main shell and not have to worry about the openings etc. Once again, I was not thinking about lifting.

The reason I was talking about doing the trunk and hood top/bottom seperate was just for ease. I was envisioning painting the bottom of the trunk on a table, sanding the overspray and painting the top in the next step. The hood really isnt solid body color on the bottom so it doesn't matter. I just need to get it good around the edges because the bottom gets blacked out. Same deal with the doors.

Now that you have brought up the lifting issue, I am not going to consider doing it that way.

I really dont have room to get around the car in my 20x20 garage/shop so I want to stick to the painting in pieces method. Fortunatly since my rockers get painted black over the body color, I have a good spot for a transition !

The car is currently sealed with Dp50 that has been guidecoated with 3M dry guidecoat and sanded with 600 wet. It's butt smooth in every nook and cranny including parts I am going to overspray and cover with backup lights,etc. So as you suggested everthing is ready and right !

So here is the new plan of attach unless you see something wrong.

1) Paint the cowl sides/front jamb and rockers while up on stands so I can get my floor oversprayed. I will paint to the bottom of the lower crease on the rear quarter just above the rocker. Its a short line should be ideal to paint to. Not to mention it gets covered with a trim piece that the RS models have.
2) Tape off the rockers to cover them and prevent additional overspray under the car. Tape off inside compartment from inside So I can coat the window openings well without getting overspray inside anywhere the factory didnt originally hit. Spray the entire shell at once including roof, rear quarters, rear tailight panel and the jambs.
3) Take the car out of garage and mount the front fenders on a stand in their normal vertical position. Put the hood on saw horses outside up, and hang the doors, trunk, cowl panel and lower valence from the ceiling. I should be able to spray the hood top and sides with it sitting on saw horses just fine. The rest of the pieces should spray fine hanging.

If I spray everything with 3 to 4 coats of paint and maintain a consistent 50% overlap I am hoping I wont have any color issues?

You commented about clear coat. I like shooting clear but I cant on this car. I want it to look somewhat original (factory best day) and clear is not going to cut it. The car gets striped as well.

Once again, this is Concept bright red.

One thing I wanted to do but after reading one of the basics of basics I have decided to rethink it I was thinking about overthinning the paint and adding more coats. My reasoning is I dont like "fat" glossy/plastic looking paint on restorations. The overthinning seemed to help save body lines ?? After doing some reading I am wondering if adding thinner is just going to create texture?

I am shooting with a Devilbiss GTi gun and ordered a 1.2 fluid tip. If thats sounds wrong, please chime in.

I love your post about moving the dry spot. Duh, that makes so much sense. I am guilty of painting a fender front to back, door front to back, rear quarter front to back... If nothing else going f -b and then b-f makes so much more sense.

Along that line, since I am spraying the entire shell any comments about roof painting? I am guessing I am going to start at the roof and then down the sail skirt and hit quarter and half way across filler betwen trunk and rear window. Then go across tail light panel and back up the other side endiing up at roof. I can see the center of roof a problem. Any comments on the walk around?? Keep in mind this car has no stub frame under it so its a clear walk around in front of firewall.

HUGE thanks. This has been a great learning experience. This car is "long term" restoration (like your GS) coming to an end and I dont want to mess up $700 worth of color !

Rich
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Old 07-13-2005, 08:55 PM
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rrmccabe, It sounds like you're doing a Camaro RS, I've got one in the shop right now in it's final stages- 69 Z-28 RS Burnish Brown metalic. This car is being painted assembled as I didn't want to chance any color match problems with this color. You'll be fine with a bright red solid color but do some test panels. I usually take a test panel and spray half of it with a white base and the other half with a black base so it is divided, then a mask it so only 20% or less is showing and apply one coat, then move the masking back another 20% and apply another coat, continue doing this till five coats have been applied. Now you've got a test panel to guage just how many coats are needed for full coverage reguardless of what color undercoat is used. If it takes three coats for full coverage apply four. More than likely you'll see this color is covered with two coats.

320/Z28, Your plan to seperate those 34 pieces will work just fine but if it were me I'd reverse your stages and paint the mainbody with doors first. It's always easier to cover and protect one large object than to find places for all those newly painted pieces-unless you have a huge shop Depending on color I'd buy 2 gallons of color to be on the safe side and for repairs down the road, the last street rod I did hit a pheasant in the grille shell top and through the windshield denting the roof-glad I had leftovers for the repair. You use a lot of materials on these cars spraying the panels inside and out. Bob
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