Panhard bar interference - Page 2 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Suspension - Brakes - Steering
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2013, 01:17 PM
327NUT's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: So. Utah
Age: 67
Posts: 3,198
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 63 Times in 57 Posts
Hey Tech....do you ever have anything positive to say about anyone's project? I'm only a few years behind you but it seems that the older you get the more critical you have become. These aren't race cars you know and TCI has probobly several thousand 28-34 chassis out on the road with this set up w/o any known problem to me anyway......GEEEEEZ

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to 327NUT For This Useful Post:
27Tall T (07-10-2013)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2013, 01:47 PM
techinspector1's Avatar
Senior Curmudgeon
 
Last wiki edit: DynoSim combinations Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hemet, California, USA
Age: 72
Posts: 12,565
Wiki Edits: 326

Thanks: 698
Thanked 878 Times in 746 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 327NUT View Post
Hey Tech....do you ever have anything positive to say about anyone's project? I'm only a few years behind you but it seems that the older you get the more critical you have become. These aren't race cars you know and TCI has probobly several thousand 28-34 chassis out on the road with this set up w/o any known problem to me anyway......GEEEEEZ
If something is done properly from a good engineering standpoint, I'm the first one to say so and congratulate the builder.
There is a right way to do things and there are many wrong ways to do things. I simply point out the proper ways to do things and if that riles you up, then you'll just have to get riled up. The fact is that I see more and more fosdick operations involving malfunctions due to fractured backyard engineering than I used to. Right is right and wrong is wrong and there ain't no middle ground. It's either a weak-suck operation or it's well-built according to good engineering principles.

You want to know how bad it is? It's so bad that I won't even go to amateur car shows any more. All that is there is a parking lot full of bad engineering that is not pleasant to look at.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to techinspector1 For This Useful Post:
27Tall T (07-10-2013)
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2013, 01:55 PM
techinspector1's Avatar
Senior Curmudgeon
 
Last wiki edit: DynoSim combinations Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hemet, California, USA
Age: 72
Posts: 12,565
Wiki Edits: 326

Thanks: 698
Thanked 878 Times in 746 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
However better the Watt's link is, it's a little too clumsy for most cars and a long Panhard bar is a good way to go.
Brian
That's my whole point Brian. You're correct, the Watt's Link is a clunky device that needs more room to work properly. So, what's the problem with providing more room for it? Isn't that what hot rodders do?

Further, you are correct again when you say that a LONG Panhard bar is a good way to go if there is unsufficient room for a Watt's Link in a platform that is already built. Emphasis on LONG, not some Fosdick short POS that will jerk the diff/body side to side on every bump. Proper design of the bar would find it's length limited only by what will fit in between the brake drums/discs, with one end anchored to a mount that comes down from the frame member and the other end anchored to a mount that comes off the differential housing close to the brake drum/disc. Again, the bar does not have to be straight, as long as it has sufficient material strength to resist the lateral movement of the differential housing.

Last edited by techinspector1; 07-10-2013 at 02:07 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to techinspector1 For This Useful Post:
27Tall T (07-10-2013)
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2013, 02:49 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 345
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 337
Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts
Okay 327 I have the panhard coming to a bracket that is mounted on the top bolt of the pumpkin and the one beside it. It has to go there because TCI welded the other bracket end to the frame directly in front of the axle just inches before the cutouts for the axle. And yes it does stick up above the housing. That's why I have the problem. What I'm doing is making a new bracket to mount off the pumpkin and down on the passenger side. Then I plan to cut the bar (made of tubing), extend it with steel rod and then bend it down to meet the bracket on the lowered side. I would love to get better pics, but there is no room for the camera because of the exhaust, mufflers, and driveshaft being in the way.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2013, 03:17 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,006
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,076 Times in 959 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
1. The Panhard bar needs to be as long as possible. Bars mounted to the pinion are a bad joke.
2. The Panhard bar does not need to be a straight bar. It can be twisted up like a pretzel to miss other components on the car and still do its job properly.
3. Panhard bar mounting points need to describe a line that is parallel with the road surface at rest.
4. History would have been much better off if Rene Panhard had been padlocked to a pole and caned until he came up with a better design for preventing lateral movement of the differential housing. James Watt had come up with a much better design by 1808, so Panhard had reference to that to work with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 27Tall T View Post
Okay 327 I have the panhard coming to a bracket that is mounted on the top bolt of the pumpkin and the one beside it. It has to go there because TCI welded the other bracket end to the frame directly in front of the axle just inches before the cutouts for the axle. And yes it does stick up above the housing. That's why I have the problem. What I'm doing is making a new bracket to mount off the pumpkin and down on the passenger side. Then I plan to cut the bar (made of tubing), extend it with steel rod and then bend it down to meet the bracket on the lowered side. I would love to get better pics, but there is no room for the camera because of the exhaust, mufflers, and driveshaft being in the way.
There may be a problem with your plan as you will be breaking the rule Techinspector pointed out. The end of the rod goes thru an arch, right? Well if you start then them level, unless you have a mile of movement it stays within an area of that arch that doesn't effect the side to side movement.

But if you have one mounting point a lot lower than the other as the axle goes up it's going into that arch, pushing the rear end side to side. You want it as even as possible. You can see that horizontal movement in the illustration below.

Brian

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to MARTINSR For This Useful Post:
27Tall T (07-10-2013)
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2013, 03:19 PM
327NUT's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: So. Utah
Age: 67
Posts: 3,198
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 63 Times in 57 Posts
Since you can't post any pics I can't give further info or recommendations.....but I would contact TCI and tell them what problems you're having.....I also STRONGLY suggest NOT to use a "metal rod" of any length. Thick wall tubing is much stronger, find a piece of chrome molly or even DOM. I would first call TCI before I did anything. That was a good post Brian but remember these street rods have very little rear end up and down movement, 2-3 inches at most. I think that's why they can get a way with a shorter panhard bar.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2013, 04:05 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,006
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,076 Times in 959 Posts
You are very correct, it doesn't move much, but with the difference in height on the mounting points, it can be pretty drastic depending on how much of a difference there is. And often the tires are close to the body, just a little bit and they are hitting. I am just tossing out general geometry info, how it pertains to his exact car is up to him. Being we are so limited with what it all looks like, that's all we can do.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to MARTINSR For This Useful Post:
27Tall T (07-10-2013)
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2013, 04:08 PM
sedanbob's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: St. Louis
Age: 65
Posts: 625
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 60
Thanked 80 Times in 77 Posts
To clarify - the panhard bar can bend all over the place, like Tech said, but it's the mounting points that should be level at ride height. Adding angle between the mounting points will add movement side-to-side, but it will also load the suspension unevenly as it moves vertically. That loading is why the NASCAR guys use panhard bars instead of a watts link which loads evenly. It also affects roll center which a watts does not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to sedanbob For This Useful Post:
27Tall T (07-10-2013)
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2013, 04:22 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,006
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,076 Times in 959 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sedanbob View Post
To clarify - the panhard bar can bend all over the place, like Tech said, but it's the mounting points that should be level at ride height. Adding angle between the mounting points will add movement side-to-side, but it will also load the suspension unevenly as it moves vertically. That loading is why the NASCAR guys use panhard bars instead of a watts link which loads evenly. It also affects roll center which a watts does not.
That is true with an oval track car which only takes left hand turns, but a car running road courses I would imagine uses the Watt's.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to MARTINSR For This Useful Post:
27Tall T (07-10-2013)
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2013, 06:51 PM
sedanbob's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: St. Louis
Age: 65
Posts: 625
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 60
Thanked 80 Times in 77 Posts
A panhard bar might still be preferred. They are simple to set up and allow for adjustments to roll center.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to sedanbob For This Useful Post:
27Tall T (07-10-2013)
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2013, 07:10 PM
lakeroadster's Avatar
Hot Rods are Built, not Bought
 

Last journal entry: Lakeroadster's '31 Model A Tudor
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: High Plains - Rocky Mountains
Age: 53
Posts: 616
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 24
Thanked 78 Times in 70 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 27Tall T View Post
I cannot cut the floor away as it is in front of the rear seat. Suggestions anyone?
Hmm.. I am thinking you'd be wise to cut a hole in the floor then make a cover that bolts from the top. It won't be much of a hump to give you the clearance you need and you can leave the suspension alone.

As has been stated previously, when it comes to panhard bars, much like other useful tools, longer is better.

Hope that helps. Good luck to ya.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to lakeroadster For This Useful Post:
27Tall T (07-10-2013)
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2013, 10:38 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 345
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 337
Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts
Carefully weighing all the options, but as I stood staring at the problem I noticed that the torsion bar(?) which runs parallel to the axle, from behind, and has arms linked to it is also hitting the floor (the attachment point). I've run out of adjustment on the sleeve and so am wondering whether I can shorten the attachment link by about 3/4" which would put it closer to the axle, but the arms will will not be parallel to the ground (would this be a problem?). Presently the arms are 1 1/2" above the axle and I can get a finger between the floor and the connecting link (at the end). The floor pan is still original and this is causing all the problems.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF0355.JPG
Views:	55
Size:	412.3 KB
ID:	75553  
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2013, 07:09 AM
lakeroadster's Avatar
Hot Rods are Built, not Bought
 

Last journal entry: Lakeroadster's '31 Model A Tudor
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: High Plains - Rocky Mountains
Age: 53
Posts: 616
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 24
Thanked 78 Times in 70 Posts
That would be the sway bar... again I am thinking cut the floor.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to lakeroadster For This Useful Post:
27Tall T (07-11-2013)
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2013, 07:52 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,006
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,076 Times in 959 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 27Tall T View Post
Carefully weighing all the options, but as I stood staring at the problem I noticed that the torsion bar(?) which runs parallel to the axle, from behind, and has arms linked to it is also hitting the floor (the attachment point). I've run out of adjustment on the sleeve and so am wondering whether I can shorten the attachment link by about 3/4" which would put it closer to the axle, but the arms will will not be parallel to the ground (would this be a problem?). Presently the arms are 1 1/2" above the axle and I can get a finger between the floor and the connecting link (at the end). The floor pan is still original and this is causing all the problems.
Those links have very little to do with any suspension movement geometry. In fact, you could take that sway bar out completely, just remove it and the car would drive possibly very near the same as it does right now. So shortening them isn't a big deal.

But you need to step back and look at this, is modifying the floor a better idea? Give clearance to everything and it's a done deal. But do take more photos, get it up on a lift or something so you can step back and take a good look at this.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2013, 08:58 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 345
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 337
Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts
Have it on a hoist and extremely difficult to really see the clearances as you are looking up at the problem instead of directly at it. Can only see a bit at a time with a mirror as the mufflers, driveshaft etc. are in the way. My last photo shot was when I jammed the camera at one end and kept shooting until I had a decent picture portraying my latest problem (couldn't see the view finder). I think the only solution is to recut the floor (cut it to clear the banjo housing). I find that TCI puts out a good product, but they need to do more suspension engineering. Another instance was when I had to cut the front fender supports to clear the independent suspension!! Why they didn't widen the stance to clear the brackets is beyond me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Suspension - Brakes - Steering posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
panhard bar. elcaminoman69 Suspension - Brakes - Steering 10 11-24-2013 07:26 AM
wish bone, panhard bar, track bar BigBlockT Suspension - Brakes - Steering 6 02-11-2010 10:25 AM
4 bar & panhard blackbart Suspension - Brakes - Steering 41 11-24-2009 07:33 PM
panhard bar uncertainty crackfiller Hotrodding Basics 1 04-03-2007 04:06 PM
Panhard bar revision 5window Suspension - Brakes - Steering 2 11-06-2003 04:31 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.