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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2013, 09:44 AM
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When I think of what is available today for the car builder I think it has taken all the fun out of it. When I got into this you made EVERYTHING! I remember when I was involved with building a Model A around 1979 and the guy bought a TCI frame, WHAT? A NEW Model A frame that you didn't have to box! WTH? We were blown away, and yes it took some mods, the front crossmember was crooked for example, it has a shim over the spring still to this day.

As far as I am concerned there are way too many bolt on parts as it is. It's like working on a 2007 Caravan for goodness sake with all the catalogs you can order parts from for a Model A, holy cow, bolt in AC!

Honestly, do some actual fabricating and have fun. If that store bought part needs some work take it as a blessing that you still get to do something.

I have a neighbor with a yard full of 20's and 30's Dodge and Chrysler stuff, get one of those cars and get to fabricate everything!

Brian

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2013, 09:32 PM
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I know exactly what you mean. Back in the "good ole days" (late 50's, 60's) everything was fabricated and buying ready-made parts was in its infancy. To this day I love fabricating brackets and such and feel really great when it all comes together. Sometimes when you finish that bracket there are occasions where it just doesn't sit right with you and so you proceed to tear it all apart to do it a different way; even though the wife says....."nobody will see it". My reply? "Yeah but I know it's there".
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2013, 08:55 AM
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The availability of hot rod parts has certainly made building a car easier - I occasionally envy the guys building a Chevelle or Mustang in that they can order parts that are direct bolt-ons for their cars, but virtually every 'universal' part for my '33 sedan had to be modified in some way. And, just because all those 'custom' parts are available, doesn't mean you have to use them - you can still fab whatever you want.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2013, 07:13 PM
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It's what you call..."being creative". Most of the stuff for the "rods" were borne from an idea. Somebody decided to copy it and reproduce it for the market. The only thing that should make you happy is..... "copying your idea is the sincerest form of flattery".
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2013, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lakeroadster View Post
TCI builds good quality parts from my experience. I used some of their parts with no problems whatsoever when I built my Model T RPU and Model A Tudor. The builder is the one that has to make sure that the combination of parts he selects works for a given application. We're building hot rods here, not a bolt together factory five kit car. If things don't work right on the initial test drive then modifications are needed, and that's ok. That's what this forum is all about, right? Hell that's why GM, Ford, etc. build "test mules", to work out the bugs.

And when it comes to panhard bars, the length you need has a lot to do with the suspension type you have and what, realistically, the articulation of the rear axle will be. I have a '65 C10 also and when I modified the rear suspension I wrote a tech thread on my research of how much difference a longer panhard bar would make... check it out here: Track Bars, The Short and The Long Of It... - Classic Parts Talk

I've made a living as an engineer for over 30 years. So I too like well engineered components. But simpler is almost always better. Watt's links are cool, but they are way overcomplicated, compared to a panhard bar, for a street driven vehicle. That's why they don't put them on factory built vehicles, they simply aren't needed.
OK, an engineer for over 30 years. That's impressive, but I have to ask you about the angle of the bar you showed in your link.

"Now lets look at a Long Track Arm"
"Image below is the frame is at ride height."

Why is the bar angled on installation? Why are the mounting points not parallel with the ground? Don't you think that if the mounting points were parallel with the ground on install, that you would have very minimal lateral movement? What was your reasoning for laying the bar in at an angle as viewed from the rear?
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2013, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by sedanbob View Post
Tech, You were the one in this thread with all the attitude.
I guess I do have an attitude when I see CRAP engineering being foisted off on fellows who apparently don't know the difference between crap and good engineering practices that will provide minimal lateral movement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sedanbob View Post
My suspension was designed by Pete & Jakes, and uses a panhard bar from the frame rail to the far side of the pinion support - similar to the TCI design - too short and lousy engineering by your statements. I checked the side to side movement throughout my suspension travel (which is very short like a lot of '30s rods). My bar is level at ride height. The side to side movement is about 3/16" as the suspension cycles from center to the top, and from center to the bottom. A panhard bar works quite well in this application.
If you're happy with it, that's great, but I don't want the body of my car moving laterally by even 3/16ths of an inch if I have the wherewithall to make it less than that. I think some of the fellows on here are getting snotty because they have spent money on CRAP and they don't like me bringing it to their attention because it makes them look stupid and nobody wants to be made to look stupid in front of 120,000 car nuts.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2013, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
Why is the bar angled on installation? Why are the mounting points not parallel with the ground? Don't you think that if the mounting points were parallel with the ground on install, that you would have very minimal lateral movement? What was your reasoning for laying the bar in at an angle as viewed from the rear?
CRAP I think I already explained that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lakeroadster View Post
Brian,

I agree in theory, however the angle of the long panhard bar shown in the analysis I listed above Track Bars, The Short and The Long Of It... - Classic Parts Talk reflects the CPP "kit" that folks are buying for the 63 through 72 suspensions. The kit bar bolts to the stock frame location and then CPP supplies a panhard bar mount that bolts to the u-bolts at the trailing arm to axle location. Is it ideal, no. Is it the kit folks are using, yes. Does it work, yes. The point of the analysis was to show a stock panhard bar vs. the CPP kit that folks are being told is a "must have" for lowered trucks, which simply is not true.

Here is a photo of the "kit" (not my truck). Photo lifted off the internet.

CPP Kit
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2013, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lakeroadster View Post
Nothing "snotty" at all. Answer the question, you opened the door, walk through it...
I was taking a shot at the CRAP designs of commercially available parts, not at you individually.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2013, 01:27 PM
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Bottom line to the OP, cut out the offending sheet metal and make cover(s).
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2013, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
I guess I do have an attitude when I see CRAP engineering being foisted off on fellows who apparently don't know the difference between crap and good engineering practices that will provide minimal lateral movement.


If you're happy with it, that's great, but I don't want the body of my car moving laterally by even 3/16ths of an inch if I have the wherewithall to make it less than that. I think some of the fellows on here are getting snotty because they have spent money on CRAP and they don't like me bringing it to their attention because it makes them look stupid and nobody wants to be made to look stupid in front of 120,000 car nuts.
The best engineering in the world is crap if it's unnecessary. A watts link does one thing only, reduce side to side movement. A panhard bar can also change roll center and loading. 3/16" is the movement only at the extremes of the suspension travel. How much movement do you think there is in a leaf spring suspension? How much movement do you think there is in a triangulated 4-bar with rubber bushings?

Do all your cars have watts links? No? Then I guess crap engineering was good enough in your eyes as well.

Were you paying attention to the rest of the posts? If the bracket the OP had was moved to the pinion support it would not contact the floor. The solution was to move the frame mount forward and put the bracket on the pinion support, not cut a hole in the floor.

It was not my intention to start a pissing match with you. Lots of folks on here have differing opinions on what should or should not be done in various instances, and they express those opinions, for the most part, without insulting those that don't agree. You used to do that too. I liked it better that way.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2013, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sedanbob View Post
The best engineering in the world is crap if it's unnecessary. A watts link does one thing only, reduce side to side movement. A panhard bar can also change roll center and loading. 3/16" is the movement only at the extremes of the suspension travel. How much movement do you think there is in a leaf spring suspension? How much movement do you think there is in a triangulated 4-bar with rubber bushings?
I don't know and you don't know either, not without mounting a camera and scale reference under the car and making a pass on a bumpy road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sedanbob View Post
Do all your cars have watts links? No? Then I guess crap engineering was good enough in your eyes as well.
Never used a Watt's Link. Never used a Panhard bar either, but I know how to make one rather than buying one from some hack who knows little or nothing except how to extract money from people who don't know any better. The stuff I built had triangulated 4-link suspension or leafs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sedanbob View Post
Were you paying attention to the rest of the posts? If the bracket the OP had was moved to the pinion support it would not contact the floor. The solution was to move the frame mount forward and put the bracket on the pinion support, not cut a hole in the floor.
Nope, missed that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sedanbob View Post
It was not my intention to start a pissing match with you. Lots of folks on here have differing opinions on what should or should not be done in various instances, and they express those opinions, for the most part, without insulting those that don't agree. You used to do that too. I liked it better that way.
I still do that, but some of these threads leave little room to MF the product without getting in the buyer's face also. If I tell you that I think XYZ
products are CRAP and you just recently spent "X" of your hard-earned dollars buying their CRAP, then you are automatically going to take offense at what I have to say about XYZ's CRAP. Then you are going to begin insulting me and things go to hell in a hurry because I do not take lightly to being insulted when I'm only trying to help others on this board.

I know what makes me the way I am, spending the past 20 years as Chief Technical Inspector at Firebird International Raceway and working for NHRA at Division 7 Nationals and Divisionals. I have teched every conceivable piece of racing equipment from Junior Dragsters to Top Fuel and I have seen the way things are supposed to work, therefore I cannot tolerate shoddy engineering or fabrication. In many cases, that will paint me as the bad guy and I guess that's just something I will have to live with on these forums.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2013, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
I was taking a shot at the CRAP designs of commercially available parts, not at you individually.
I got that, but you never did answer the question

Quote:
Originally Posted by lakeroadster View Post
Have you ever seen a Chevrolet C-10 truck built from 1963 thru 1972? All the 2 wheel drive models utilized panhard bars that attached to the frame on one side, and to the center differential housing on the other end. Worked great on the millions of trucks that GM sold.
Are these millions of suspensions "weak-suck or well-built"? Or are they " middle ground", a real world compromise of design based on what is required and cost effective vs. what is ideal and more expensive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
Right is right and wrong is wrong and there ain't no middle ground. It's either a weak-suck operation or it's well-built according to good engineering principles.
No middle ground? That reflects your background and career. You inspect based on specifications that others assign. Either they meet the spec. or they don't. Here, for us Hot Rodders, there is a lot of middle ground, pretty much everything is middle ground. And when you keep calling the middle ground CRAP over and over and over again it's pretty darn condescending.

At least that's how I see it?

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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2013, 04:46 PM
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I'm sorry but this is wrong..


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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2013, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
I don't know and you don't know either, not without mounting a camera and scale reference under the car and making a pass on a bumpy road.


Never used a Watt's Link. Never used a Panhard bar either, but I know how to make one rather than buying one from some hack who knows little or nothing except how to extract money from people who don't know any better. The stuff I built had triangulated 4-link suspension or leafs.


Nope, missed that.


I still do that, but some of these threads leave little room to MF the product without getting in the buyer's face also. If I tell you that I think XYZ
products are CRAP and you just recently spent "X" of your hard-earned dollars buying their CRAP, then you are automatically going to take offense at what I have to say about XYZ's CRAP. Then you are going to begin insulting me and things go to hell in a hurry because I do not take lightly to being insulted when I'm only trying to help others on this board.

I know what makes me the way I am, spending the past 20 years as Chief Technical Inspector at Firebird International Raceway and working for NHRA at Division 7 Nationals and Divisionals. I have teched every conceivable piece of racing equipment from Junior Dragsters to Top Fuel and I have seen the way things are supposed to work, therefore I cannot tolerate shoddy engineering or fabrication. In many cases, that will paint me as the bad guy and I guess that's just something I will have to live with on these forums.
I have not insulted you. I appreciate your efforts to help people on this board. In this specific thread I think your self-righteous attitude overcame your desire to help.

I serious doubt that during your 20 years of tech inspections, you failed every panhard bar suspension based on your belief that it's shoddy engineering.
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Old 07-14-2013, 05:59 PM
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There are literally thousands of hotrods running around with shorter differential mounted panhard bars that work, and don't drive erratically. Yes, in a perfect world all panhard bars would be as long as possible, and laying perfectly flat, but that doesn't mean anything less than that doesn't work, or is dangerous, or crap.
Blaming the engineering of a system for this particular panhard hitting a floor is silly. The designers didn't have any way to know the builder would not set his floor height high enough to clear the bar, or the swaybar. And the fix is as simple as raising the floor. There's a lot of ways to re-engineer all the mounts, and brackets, but will the end result be better, or even feel noticeably different when driving, vs. just removing the obstacles?
We need to remember that there's always a better way to build a car, and a way to pass on info without getting rude, or resort to name calling. We also need to remember that not every car needs race car technology to drive and handle well, and still be safe.
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