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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 09-20-2010, 12:33 AM
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Start with a simple diagnostic cylinder compression test.

What cam did you attempt to run in this motor?.
Brand, part number, grind number.

If you mixed up the old lifters when reinstalling the old cam or if the old cam or lifters had any amount of wear, its not going to work.
The cam lobes and lifter faces will self destruct in minutes.

Its very easy to got the cam installed phasing all wrong on a 70's era ford V8.
There were various different cam/crank timing sprockets all giving different cam timing/phasing on these smog era motors.
Easy to get things messed up with replacement parts. May need to degree the cam to verify actual valve timing.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 09-20-2010, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
Start with a simple diagnostic cylinder compression test.

What cam did you attempt to run in this motor?.
Brand, part number, grind number.

If you mixed up the old lifters when reinstalling the old cam or if the old cam or lifters had any amount of wear, its not going to work.
The cam lobes and lifter faces will self destruct in minutes.

Its very easy to got the cam installed phasing all wrong on a 70's era ford V8.
There were various different cam/crank timing sprockets all giving different cam timing/phasing on these smog era motors.
Easy to get things messed up with replacement parts. May need to degree the cam to verify actual valve timing.
I forgot to ask you about this Eddie, But as mentioned above did you put the old lifters back where they came out at, Did you mark the location and keep them in order when you removed them or did you just put them back in? In no particular order. You have to keep them in order and put them back in exactly where they came out at. The old lifters already have a wear pattern to the old cam. And as F-Bird stated if you don't install the old ones back where they came from you will wipe the lobes real quick .


Cole
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 09-21-2010, 06:45 AM
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Pantera

F-BIRD
What you said, is EXACTLY WHAT i HAVE DONE!! I mixed up the old lifters when reinstalling the old CAM. And I am sure they self destruct!!! thank you guys for finding the problem! I have to import AGAIN new parts and go through the jassel of customs and paper work. Last time it took 2 months!

To answer your question.
Q - WHAT CAM I HAVE IN THE ENGINE NOW
A - The old original cam that came in the car. (it's ruin now!!)
CAM Specs from the book.
ENGINE 351-C... LOBE LIFT (intake) = 0.278 (exhaust)=0.283 VALVE LIFT(intake)=0.481 (exhaust)=0.490 CAMSHAFT(end play)=0.001 0.006 (wear limit)=0.009 LOBE LIFT Maximum allowable lobe lift loss=0.005
Q - BRAND...? PART NUMBER...? GRIND NUMBER...?

Could you please suggest a set of new parts I should buy? So they will be compatible with each other? Please.

F-BIRD, You talk of things that haven't cross my mind! (because I don't know!) Quote: THERE WERE VARIOUS DIFFERENT CAM/CRANK TIMING SPROCKETS ALL GIVING DIFFERENT CAM TIMING/PHASING ON THESE SMOG ERA MOTORS. (No idea of what you're talking about!!!)

I would like to up grade the CAM just a little, as long it wont go over 1200 RPM and hold a good idling. The distributor gear fits a CAM for a 351-C I don't know if it's important, but the motor has an Edelbrock intake manifold and a 650cfm Holley. Thanks a lot. Eddie

JMO: You had no reason to imagine that any body in their wright mind, could mix indiscriminately all the lifters! Luckily F-BIRD did!
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 09-21-2010, 09:05 AM
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D2ZZ-6250-B Does this number appear on the origional camshaft?

If so, the replacement cam is Elgin #E806S Elgin hyd lifter #HL1900.


287-307 208-221 @.050" .491" .490" 115 LSA 120in-110ex centers (5deg retarded 1972up smog emissions motor "retarded" cam timing.
Cam timing must be checked and verified. Different timing sprockets give different cam timing. Its easy to get it wrong on this motor.

You must verify valve retainer to guide boss/seal clearance at full lift with all cams.
Any all cams with more than stock lift will require cylinder head maching and new valve springs for increased lift. Failure to verify and correct all valve train clearances will result in broken/bent parts.

This 1973 year 351C is a low compression ratio motor.
The cr is 8.5:1. Big cams do not work with low compression.
I recomend you stick to the stock replacement 351 c cobra jet cam
I recomend you degree it in and install it slightly advanced instead of the smog era retarded cam timing.
110-120 in ex centers (5deg advanced) instead of the factory 5deg retard.
This will improve the overall performance a lot with the stock low compression ratio.

Any other cam must have stock valve lift or very vey close to that or you will get trouble unless you modify the stock valvetrain (machining, new springs,retainers seals rocker studs etc) to work with increased valve lift.
This motor is the easiest to get it screwed up as there were many production parts changes. You must measure and verify all specs and clearances before and fater ordering parts.

Again, I highly recomend staying with the stock cam for this motor. Its a good one for your purpose and low compression ratio. Again fixing up the cam phasing by "degreeing it" and correctly, accuratly adjusting the cam timing will help.
you want it:
slightly advanced, instead of retarded from "true straight up"... Do not guess, measure it. The various camshaft company web siters have camshaft cam degreeing tutorials in their tech sections of their web sites and catalogs.
educate your self on what this is and how to do it.
crane cam, comp cams , lunati cams isky cams.
If you just got to put a different non stock cam in it stay close in .050" duration and very close to the stock valve lift specs.
Some of these motors had a non adjustable valve train that needs to be changed to a true high perf fully adjustable valve train to work with non stock cams. (machineing and new rocker arms , screw in studs guide plates push rods, springs and retainers etc)
The 1970 Boss 351c cobra jet had this high perf adjustable valvetrain. Later motors like yours did not. Various different retainers, different lock grooves, installed heights, exhaust rotators etc etc. Not the easiest motor to cut your teeth on.


Compression test the motor for bent valves that kissed the pistons.
Bent valves will not work. broken /bent pushrods indicate valve to piston issues and rocker arm valvespring travel issues. Measure every thing.

The desirable pre 1972 tiiming sprocket that is not retarded, has the keyway and the timing dot aligned. (so they say) you must degree it and see).
Many different production changes on this motor. You must check everything. Get someone there trained in this to help you. Or educate yourself before you jump in again.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 09-21-2010 at 09:28 AM.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 09-21-2010, 09:16 AM
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So,, what was the wonder cam you stuck in this motor, that screwed everything up?

specs?
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 09-21-2010, 10:05 AM
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Here is the specs for the Elgin replacement cam
from the Elgin Prostock cam catalog
You can download the catalog online (PDF)

The .050" cam timing specs shown are with the cam "retarded"
This was done by Ford, for emissions purposes.

It will run much better if you adjust the cam timing by degreeing it and advancing it by 10deg from these specs.

new .050" timing specs will be ..... in opens -6.5 in closes 33.5
ex opens 53.5 ex closes -12.5

207-221 @.050" 116.5 LSA .481" .490"

The motor will be much more spunky. (more torque)

When installed correctly as I recomend, the cam will be "6 advanced"
Warning: 1973 was a long long time ago.
This motor you have may not be the original motor.
It may not even be a "Cobra Jet" motor. If the motor is in fact a stock low perf version it will have a valvetrain that is even more restrictive to valve lift.
Its up to you to check and verify what you got there.
Any attempt to bolt in any high perf cams in these base low perf motors with stock valvetrain will result in broken parts.
A full cam kit + custom pushrods + cylinder head machining and accurate mockup fit checking is required to upgrade the base 351c 351M 400M motors.
Throwing it together will just result in $$$ smashed parts $$$$
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Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 09-21-2010 at 10:30 AM.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 09-21-2010, 03:35 PM
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[QUOTE=PANTERA]F-BIRD
What you said, is EXACTLY WHAT i HAVE DONE!! I mixed up the old lifters when reinstalling the old CAM. And I am sure they self destruct!!! thank you guys for finding the problem! I have to import AGAIN new parts and go through the jassel of customs and paper work. Last time it took 2 months!



F-BIRD, You talk of things that haven't cross my mind! (because I don't know!) Quote: THERE WERE VARIOUS DIFFERENT CAM/CRANK TIMING SPROCKETS ALL GIVING DIFFERENT CAM TIMING/PHASING ON THESE SMOG ERA MOTORS. (No idea of what you're talking about!!!


What he is talking about Eddie is they make timing sets for 351C that has either 1 location on the crank sprocket or it can come with multiple key-way
locations, This way you can advance or retard the timing when it is installed.
then you tweak it out at the distributer.

Cole
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 09-21-2010, 11:12 PM
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Pantera

F-BIRD
I am out of luck!.. After reading your kind explanation of how the engine in my car works And what I should or shouln't do in order to get things going the correct way! It brings me to two realizations> First: How grateful I am with a person like you, with your incredible amount of knowledge, which will take it's time to try to help some body thousands of miles a way!
Second: After reading various times your explanations. It brings to my mind that famous Greek philosopher, SOCRATES. when with a glass of "CICUTA" on his hand, and before committing suicide, he said. THE ONLY THING I KNOW... IS THAT, I DON'T KNOW ANY THING!

People like you and COLE, is what it makes the world go around!

Thanks a lot!!

Eddie.

PS. In the book dose not say any thing about the kind of camshaft the car came with. And if the number is in the CAM, it is still in the car, and if is not too much trouble for you; I could send you as soon as I get it out. About the camshaft that screwed every thing up, I will look for the invoice it should be there. Thanks again!
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 09-25-2010, 12:50 PM
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Pantera

I think the best way to take care of my problem, is just getting a new engine. I have almost 2 years working in this one! And after reading your kind suggestions, I relized I am in a complete different league! It's not just matter of educating myself I don't think I could learn in a couple days what it has taking a long time to people like you to become Masters in the art of Mechanics! I have a BROKER in Miami that could sheep me a new engine. Do you of any reliable shop I could get in touch? I would hate to get one out of Google.
But before getting a new engine, I will like to give one more try to the one is on. Crankshsft, rods pistons etc. (3/4) I think are OK. So I was thinking to get the CAM and LIFTERS F-BIRD suggested. (Elgin #E8065 - hidr Lifters #HL1900) And also get push rods for a 351-C (Hope they send me the wright size.) when changing this 3 things; Does springs and rocker arms, also would have to be change? or could I used the ones are on! Since I have to pull the heads to do all these, I will take the heads to a shop to have the valves checked. I will hate to trough the engine away! What do you think COLE? do you think I will be wasting My time and money??
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Old 09-25-2010, 01:25 PM
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When you get the Cam out check the Lobes for wear. This & the oil will indicate if metal has circulated through the Engine. Which can ruin Crank & Rod bearings.
The Valve Springs should be replaced IMO, they don't have many miles but, they have sat in one position for a long time & can lose pressure + if the replacement Cam is larger than stock, the Springs wont be able to handle the increased lift & lobe ramp rate.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 09-25-2010, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PANTERA
I will hate to trough the engine away! What do you think ? do you think I will be wasting My time and money??
No i don't think you will be wasting you time or money, I think you are on the right track. But i have to admit without being there and actually seeing what has happened to your engine. As stated check the oil for any metal and the cam lobes as sedan said.
You really do need to take a closer look at things you might have got lucky and nothing else is hurt but you need to check to be sure of it.
I Don't know what your options are where you live Eddie as far as a machinist or machine shop. But yes the heads need to be checked. Don't throw that engine away even if you do get another engine from Miami keep the original engine. But IMHO the entire engine needs to checked for any damage. JMO
Eddie you have any pics of the engine /parts that were hurt ?


Cole

Last edited by eloc431962; 09-25-2010 at 02:50 PM. Reason: left out a letter
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 09-25-2010, 02:59 PM
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This is a different situation ,but have swapped many cams. In cam swaps , my lifters remained popped up in their bores, and just slid in the cam. Thus reusing the same lifters in the bores. Prelubed everything with 30 wt, spun the crank and primed it. Never had a lobe wipe or lifter wear.

Is this just lucky?

Do you have 1.6 rockers? .278" lobe lift should be around .420" or something.

If the cam is increased to .480-.490 with a 1.5 , that is alot of lift. The aggressive road car driving dynamic of the pantera will be changed.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 09-26-2010, 02:20 PM
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Pantera

This is good news. Thanks COLE. About $600 Sounds much better than over $6.000 For a new engine! Even if it goes wrong! But I'll get the satisfaction to have try to save this engine!
To check the oil?...Definitely will do!! In addition to the cam,lifters and push pods (F-BIRD) suggested.. To buy new springs and rocker arms... Will do!!
If I give to the BOSS of a machine shop, the specs F-BIRD suggested; I doubt he'll know, what he is talking about!
Eddie
edgarbalseca@yahoo.com
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