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Old 02-27-2004, 10:50 AM
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patch panelfabrication

im in a nite school auto restoration class at the county voc-techand repairing the rust out on the pass front fender on a 62 gal xl 500.the bottom 3 inches had pinhole rust and the teacher said cut it out and make a patch. well i did and it looked pretty good but he said overlap weld i said shouldnt we flange it or try to butt weld it he said to much trouble , not worth the effort bla, bla, bla well we overlapped it and ground it down but its still feels high he said with bondo spread out over a wider area you wont feel it. i hope so the patch is 1 " from the door lead edge i hope the door and fenders line up. what do you guys think?? i cant do it at home due to lack of equipment , mig , sheetmetal compressor etc. mike

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Old 02-27-2004, 11:02 AM
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Not the profesional way to do it. Trouble with overlap welding, is that rust tends to form again in the overlap.

It all depends on how nice you want the car, how long you are going to keep it etc.

I can't really talk, cus I usually overlap my patches. My cars are far from perfect......
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Old 02-27-2004, 02:51 PM
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A butt weld is the right way to fix it. Just make sure you eat plenty of spicey tacos or chile before you light the gas so its hot enough.

Seriously, butt welds are for show cars or guys who can do it well. A flange weld will work well enough and last a long time on a daily driver.
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Old 02-27-2004, 04:35 PM
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The only right way to overlap is to use a flanging tool, so that the metal sits in there flush.

Butt welding it is the best way, and only takes the slightest bit more time for superior results... Who is in so much of a hurry that it can't be done the right way?

Overlapping it without flushing it is just plain wrong. Your autobody teacher needs to teach home ec or something...
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Old 02-27-2004, 06:19 PM
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Most any autobody repair class is going to teach lap welding sheetmetal for collision repairs. They are the recommended method according to ICAR. ICAR sets the proceedures used for collision repair in most reputable collision repair shops. Butt welds are only recommended when there is a backer used. The backer is plug welded to both pieces, then the pieces are butt welded.
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Old 02-29-2004, 03:49 PM
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I got a laugh out of this...sorry.Butt-welding is the right way to do it.Overlapping just covers the hole,butt-welding fixes the hole.Lap welding is also a very good technique but I prefer to butt-weld.
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Old 02-29-2004, 10:36 PM
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I'm nowhere near skilled at this...repairing a 1957 Chevy Pickup that has tons of rot-out. Currently doing the doors.

Each door requires 3 seperate pieces, the bottom/inner portion shaped like an L, the hinge mount and the outer skin.

Well I did a butt on the bottom/inner portion, and that turned out excellent. I had access to both sides of the panel because the outer panel wasn't installed. So I was easily able to get everything lined up correctly. Laid tack after tack after tack until it was in nicely.

Today I went downstairs to do the outer panel, and I'm using those deals from eastwoods called "intergrips" where it gaps the sheetmetal .030 and aligns it perfectly...if you've got enough patience to get them clamped on correctly.

I got a couple clamped on nicely...couple other fell off after I started tacking, so I have a nice little unlevel surface where the old panel and the new panel don't line up perfectly. I have a nice long dolly on a post that I am going to try to get inside to get the panel popped up in that area...if not, I go with the bondo.

If this ends up looking like *** at the end of the day...I'm going to cut it off and lap it. It's one thing to try to do a butt in a place where you can...it's another thing entirely to bite off too much (which is what I feel like I did here) and end up with a ****tier result.

I say, if you THINK you can butt it and you're willing to fail...butt it. Lap it if you feel more comfortable...any way to do it where it's functional and will hold up for a significant amount of time is fine by me.

I've got glass on my cab corners, and I'm thinking that with a little por-15, it won't go anywhere for a LONG LONG time. It looks really good and it has held up under the weather for about 3 years now (my truck isn't garaged). Why bother creating more work...with the potential of screwing stuff up...I'm no Boyd Coddington.
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Old 03-01-2004, 12:22 AM
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butt,

Boyd Coddington uses a butt load of filler. don't be scared to.
just remember, less is more, which is best.
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Old 03-01-2004, 07:18 AM
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patch panel ??????

i ground down the welds and its pretty smooth goona try and butt the next ones see the class is 3 hrs long ya gotta get it done within that time frame i can drive home with vise grip clamps hangin from my fender lol. i m gopnna buy a 110 volt hobart 135 and practice at home patience i got plenty of money i dont thanks guys mike
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Old 03-01-2004, 12:23 PM
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I've got a Hobart 125 (cause I couldn't afford more), and I love it. I ended up buying the gas kit but I still have a spool of flux core in the machine so I'm going to use it all up.

For sheetmetal, I set the thing to 1/15-30...depending on how quick I feel like evaporating the metal at the time.

Hey Crazy Larry, thanks for the kind words. I'm not building a show-truck, so just as long as it's functional and looks halfway decent at the end of this build, I will be one happy guy.

I THINK I'm making progress...the driver's side door didn't close when I first got it because the retard before me OVERLAPPED a patch panel onto the original metal causing the dimensions of the door to change...and it was too thick in places, and the door just wouldn't close.

well, now it's closing. still needs work. hey, maybe I'll post some pictures for some laughs soon.-
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Old 03-01-2004, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jimk
I got a laugh out of this...sorry.Butt-welding is the right way to do it.Overlapping just covers the hole,butt-welding fixes the hole.Lap welding is also a very good technique but I prefer to butt-weld.
I'm glad you got a laugh out of that. Unless you are experienced in welding sheetmetal, there is a good chance that the butt welds will not have proper penetration. That means that they are subject to crack later from flexing. Lap joints from the inside, that are done properly, have less chance of failure, specially when done by someone not skilled in sheetmetal welding. For appearance only, butt welds may be fine. For strength, in a daily driver, a proper lap joint is the way to go. If you butt weld a partial quarterpanel, and the weld is not just right, it will collaps on impact.
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Old 03-01-2004, 08:49 PM
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I do both but if strength is a issue i over lap. Harbor Fraight sells
a crimper for about 50 dollars that works great if overlaping that
makes the edges flush.
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Old 03-01-2004, 09:05 PM
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If you're having problems getting penetration on sheet steel that is 18 gauge or less, you need to sell your welder.

If anything, the difficulty comes with having too much heat, and blowing through.

Butt welds, ground down to the original sheet thickness, are the right way. Period.

Lap joints are for those who are not skilled enough to get good edge gaps, or those who are too lazy to care. (production body shops)

Even the best in the business can get warpage when welding too.
How do you plan on using that hammer and dolly to finnish out a seam that is a double thickness?

For example, Ron Covell, Kent Smith, Ron Fournier are among a small handfull of metalshapers that are considered the best in the business, and highly respected in the street rodding industry. They all use butt welds for joining pannels.
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Old 03-01-2004, 10:49 PM
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Ron Covell is unquestionably one of the best metalsmiths ever. The metal forming video where he totally rehabs a 1932 Morgan three-wheeler shows his extraordinary skill. And, yes, he butt-welds all his sheetmetal. In fact he got that body so perfect, it didn't even need any filler!

But that Morgan's never going to be a daily driver (if it ever was), with its weird plunger suspension, ash frame, and wooden body sub-structure.

Ad kart's point about the metallurgy of welds governs here. A properly flanged lap joint that is either spot- or plug-welded is the only way to get a joint that is both strong enough for a daily driver and looks good.

My '35 Ford sedan delivery's roof on each side is flanged and spot-welded to the upper part of the roof above the windshield. This joint was finished with lead at the factory. After almost 70 years of hard use and enough rot of the lower body mounts to cause lots of flexing, those joints are undetectable.

It is neither true nor fair to assert that lap welds are for those who are "too lazy or unskilled to do it right." I don't care if you can butt-weld aluminum foil, HRH, that kind of comment is uncalled for.
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Old 03-02-2004, 11:02 PM
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I agree with your post 35 sedan.

Everyone has their favored techniques, and my statement was out of line.

Humble apologies to all.
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