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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2008, 05:11 PM
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Techron

Sounds like the engine is not burning the fuel efficiently. There is a product I have had good results with and created for injected engines. Stuff is called Techron. Made by Chevron. In a black bottle. I had an instructor from many years ago when I was turning a wrench that ran his own tests to see if this was all hype and really was impressed by the stuff. Next best thing to actually having an injector cleaning run. You ight have injectors not atomizing the fuel properly so its not mixing with the air right and buring up. That would cause high CO's. Worth the 10 bucks to run it. Just follow the directions on the bottle. Don't re-engineer the procedures and this might work.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2008, 05:37 PM
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CO is un-burnt fuel. Caused by a lean cylinder miss-fire. (unburnt fuel mixtures entering the exhaust system) This defies 'logic' though, because you would think it was running too rich, but a active HO'2 sensor will pick up the 'unburnt' fuel, and tell the computer to 'lean' me out. A out of range HO'2 sensor can cause this also.

HC is caused by high cylinder temperature(lean) mixtures, or exhaust leaks before the Cat./HO'2 sensor.

I will also add the fact that I am not a 'licensed' smog tech. I just use a 5-gas (hand held) analyzer for diagnostic performance checks, and tune-ups. This tool has a 'lambda' that is a A/F ratio function. A reading of 1.000 is a perfect A/F ratio, anything below is too rich, and above is too lean.

I have found cases where a Iridium spark plug was required, and a double platinum plug was installed, causing a HO'2 to read rich and lean the engine
out, and vice-versa.

I am only going by my own experiences in diagnostics, and what I have found.

I do not want to imply the fact that I am right, or you are wrong. I just want to 'reply' with what I believe might be wrong.

Stephen

Last edited by carsavvycook; 10-19-2008 at 09:26 PM. Reason: wrong wording
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2008, 05:57 PM
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HC also indicates unburnt fuel as gasoline is a basically made up of hydrocarbons. His HC readings are low. The increased NOX is most likely due to the alcohol.
A defective O2 is a possibility. Probably best to take it to a mechanic and have it scoped.

Chet
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2008, 09:44 PM
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During research on a 92 Honda Accord I found a 'tech' note for oil in the HO'2 electrical connector. The electrical connector is mounted below the oil filter.

I thought this was interesting enough to post.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2008, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carsavvycook
During research on a 92 Honda Accord I found a 'tech' note for oil in the HO'2 electrical connector. The electrical connector is mounted below the oil filter.

I thought this was interesting enough to post.



I started working on Hondas in about 93 or 94.I have never seen that but I guess anything is possible.
I have not done emission inspections since 98(moved to tn).I honestly don,t understand how far off it is.I am used to the % readings.

If there are no codes.The first thing I would do is a valve adjustment.These are speed density.A tight valve could cause it to go rich.
I would also check the ground at the t-stat housing and clean it.
I have seen some injectors on these that would leak internally.You will have one black plug.

If it is not too far off.I have seen "good" plugs and wires lower the co.(NGK). These cars do not like cheap ignition parts...........and neither do I.


I know in emissions school they tell you ignition is for HC but I have seen it clean up a honda.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2008, 11:01 PM
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I do not understand, or know what JMARK referred to as "GPM" (Grams Per Mile)testing. I only understand % testing.

I hope he will pm me, and enlighten me to what it is, and how it is measured. They say "you have to learn something every day"! I'm game!

All I can say, is that I primarily do emission/tune-up diagnostics almost 7 days a week. I also have 5 other local shop owners that bring me vehicles to diagnose.

I also will admit that I do not know it all, and most times it takes me over 30 minutes to compose a post.

It's hard getting (sorry seniors) old. My memory fades occasionally.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 10-20-2008, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carsavvycook
I do not understand, or know what JMARK referred to as "GPM" (Grams Per Mile)testing. I only understand % testing.

I hope he will pm me, and enlighten me to what it is, and how it is measured. They say "you have to learn something every day"! I'm game!

It's hard getting (sorry seniors) old. My memory fades occasionally.
Stephen.

First off, I was a state certified emission inspector for Arizona "back in the day". I retired from auto mechanics in 1986.

Back then, as now, on OLDER vehicles, CO is measured in "percent".
HC is measured in "parts per million".
On the newer cars up to (if my memory is correct) 1994, emission readings are measured in " grams per mile". The overall weight of the pollutants is somehow determined from the tail pipe readings. Oddly enough, the exact same equipment is used for all three: "percent", "parts per million" and "grams per mile". All I can figure is somehow their software does some kind of conversion to display the correct type of reading.
OBDII vehicles get NO tailpipe testing at all. A quick plug in and scan is all they get.

As I stated earlier, CO is burned fuel. If the CO is high, it's running rich. If the CO is very low, it "can" be running too lean.

HC is raw fuel. You fill your tank with HC. If the engine has a mechanical problem or is not firing on one or more cylinders, the HC will be very high. If there is no combustion, the raw fuel passes right through the engine un-burned and will be read as high HC.

HC is not caused by super high combustion temps.

NOX readings go high when combustion temps climb past a certain point. A defective EGR valve (staying closed) will cause high NOX readings (and sometimes pinging).
An EGR valve that is staying partially open at idle (dirty and sticking partially open) will give high HC readings because the mixture to those cylinders is so lean that they misfire. When it misfires, HC goes sky high because the fuel never burned and passed right on through and out the pipe.

Also, taking readings on a cat equipped vehicle at the tail pipe is not how to do good testing on a troubled car. The cat will clean up a ton of problems, (to a point), but the problems may still be there, only masked by the cat. For testing, the samples need to be taken before the cat, so you get "real" emission readings of what the engine is actually doing.

Back to the original posters problems.

His HC was within spec. That tells me the engine is "basically" sound, even though it has a zillion miles! LOL (it's hard to kill a Honda!). It is firing on all cylinders and his compression is probably close enough. His ignition system is functioning properly too.

His CO was HIGH. That tells me that it is running richer than it should be. This could be caused by any number of things.

His NOX was within spec too. This tells me that the engine is not producing overly high combustion temps and if so equipped, his EGR valve is functioning ok.

Bottom line for his failure, too much fuel is being burned as he drives.

Now..............since it's reported in "grams per mile", there is no way to tell if it's "at idle" or "at cruise", or both! LOL
This is where the "percent" readings come into play. Most shop-style equipment still read CO in percent. (At least around here). This "may" help determine if it's an overall over-rich problem, or maybe related to just one area.

Since his report does not show a "pass/fail" for a cat, I'll have to assume his does not have one. So, all tailpipe readings will be very accurate.

Bottom line for me if it was my car......I'd pull a small, non critical vacuum line off, creating a small vacuum leak and run it through again. The vacuum leak will help lean it out some, maybe just enough to bring down the high CO (burned fuel) reading and squeak him through. But actually, the smart money is to have it scanned and checked over to see exactly why/where it's running rich and have it repaired correctly.

Here is a little test you can do next time you have your 5 gas on a NON-CAT equipped car. Watch your CO percent reading while giving a little squirt of carb cleaner down the intake. The CO% will rise. (you are adding and burning more fuel)

Pull a plug wire and the HC will rise. (no combustion, the fuel goes right through and out the pipe)

Mark

Last edited by Jmark; 10-20-2008 at 11:07 AM.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 10-20-2008, 01:28 PM
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Jmark, I agree, I should have proof read that post better before actually posting it. I had dinner on my mind all day yesterday. I was given a Venison Steak, and I had not had any Venison in 41 years. I started preparing it at 6AM with it covered with sliced KIWI (natures only natural meat tenderizer) for 4 hours in the fridge, then into a different bag covered in milk for 4 more hours (to remove some of the 'game' taste out of it). I then breaded it with crushed "Ritz" crackers (that's all I had), and slow fried it in olive oil. Wouldn't you know, after preparing it all day, when I sat down to eat, my phone started ringing. I have left overs for lunch today!

This is no excuse for confusing HC and NOX on my part.

Back to emission testing. Here in California all vehicles, including OBD2, with the exception of all wheel drive, and Motorhomes, are done on a wheel dyno machine, at 15MPH and 25MPH. The smog machine is also plugged into the OBD2 diagnostic connector, and any 'stored' codes (check engine light not on), and 'set readiness' monitor's are checked. They also check every gas cap, and now test all 1976 to 1995 vehicle EVAP systems (by pressurizing the fuel tank, with the canister hose crimped closed) for an extra $10-$20 charge. The newest "twist" is to observe for any smoke (oil) from the PCV system, and tailpipes.

They are extremely tough here, and I understand it will only get tougher.

This is why I am open 7 days a week, if 'need be'. I have heard a lot of people lately, having to take on a second 'part time' job, after having their hours cut to 'part time' status, because of 'company' cost cutting.

I have thought of relocating out of state, but it is 'hard' to just up and abandon my customer base, from 36 years working here in Southern California.

Stephen
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 10-20-2008, 01:44 PM
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Stephen.....I've had venison twice in my life and almost hurled both times! Did not make any difference how it was cooked! YUK!!! LOL

Arizona, I'm sure, will eventually catch up with CA in testing standards.

I've seen cars in the testing lanes belching oil smoke but still pass. I've asked the guys there about this and they say as long as it passes the required parts, oil smoke is not considered! DUH!!! Why not?

We have testing from '71 to current. It's getting closer! My old '77 usually passes ok but my sons '76 killer 400 has failed 4 times in a row now. It's parked till we come up with a "fix"! LOL We're going to "try" to add a cat and see if it passes. His 286 cam is a killer on emissions.
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Old 10-20-2008, 02:32 PM
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I understand they only test 1974, or 1975, to current vehicles here now. They raised the 1971 and up testing to '74, or '75 up testing now.

I work on a lot of performance vehicles, and have been able to 'see' what difference a spark plug 'heat range', and .005 plug gap change, and or timing change, makes out of the tailpipe.

I saw the potential this hand held (totally portable) 5 gas emission analyzer had from a flier I saw. I had to wait 7 months for it to become available, and purchased it the day my Snap-on Rep put it on his truck. He had it back-ordered for me.

I have found 2 very small cracked cylinder heads, that showed exhaust emission's in the cooling system, in as little as a 45 second window, just before the thermostat opened. They both did not show a combustion leak, or coolant on a spark plug, or white smoke out of the tailpipe. They both just ran a little warmer, with some bubbles in the recovery tank. The cracks also closed up, after the aluminum heated up. It took a magnifying glass to see them.

It has paid for it's self in the little over a year I have had it.
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