Phoenix area emission failed twice - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2008, 08:48 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: phoenix
Posts: 4
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Phoenix area emission failed twice

I recently moved to phoenix. There are only 8-9 emission testing centers through out the city. Sucks!!

Honda Accord 92 with 240K, recently changed distributor cap, plugs and cables (couple of months ago I did ). I moved to phoenix and the initial emission test resulted in FAIL with high CO (12.16 out of 12 ). After doing some research online, I took it for retest with 1 gallon of denatured alcohol (lowes) mixed in a 5 gallons of gas. Before putting alcohol, I took it to dealer for oil change. Before going into test, I drove the car for 15-20 miles on freeway, frequently raising the RPM (by hard pressing accelarator).

Unfortunately, this time it failed again with a new twist. Not only CO was same around 12.4 but also NOX increased. Now my car failed both CO and NOX.

Thanks a lot in advance for your thoughts.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2008, 08:54 PM
Member
 
Last wiki edit: Ford axle ratio codes
Last journal entry: Rear Suspension
Last photo:
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Prattsville
Posts: 6,349
Wiki Edits: 31

Thanks: 2
Thanked 53 Times in 49 Posts
get some " gaurenteed to pass " addative.. should work on that car... does it have a cat? 1 of those years Honda ran on the edge of the limit w/o them, and didn't need them.. could be with 240k it's just over the limit.. add in a cat and it might be ok
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2008, 09:08 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: phoenix
Posts: 4
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
re: Phoenix area emission failed twice

It might have a CAT, I am not sure. I own this car from 2002 and I never had any issues with it other than regular wear and tear. Neither did I had any emission related nor any engine related issues. I never changed O2 sensor too.
I am kind of hesitant to touch CAt, since it is an expensive repair.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2008, 12:37 PM
T-bucket23's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Engine basic condition - how to check Last photo:
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 56
Posts: 5,088
Wiki Edits: 26

Thanks: 7
Thanked 102 Times in 87 Posts
The alcohol will raise the NOX. If you retard the timing it will clean up the reading. The higher temps make the exhaust cleaner. This is an old trick that we used to use. I have seen vehicles that were triple the limit pass with near zero reading by setting the timing back to 10 atdc

CHet
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2008, 12:38 PM
T-bucket23's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Engine basic condition - how to check Last photo:
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 56
Posts: 5,088
Wiki Edits: 26

Thanks: 7
Thanked 102 Times in 87 Posts
The alcohol can also damage fuel system parts if they are not designed to be used with alcohol
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2008, 12:54 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: phoenix
Posts: 4
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
re: Phoenix area emission failed twice

I immediately diluted it by filling the tank after the test. I hope I wont damage anything.

"I have seen vehicles that were triple the limit pass with near zero reading by setting the timing back to 10 atdc"

How to set this? I am little bit poor in auto repairs. Can it be done by me or do I have to take the mechanic and ask him to set the timing back to 10atdc?

Thank you very much for your inputs
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2008, 03:09 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: cornelius
Posts: 657
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 29
Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts
If its free to keep testing, Try getting the engine good and hot. Keep the engine revved to 3K rpm while your waiting in line and see if it passes. Otherwise fork over the money have have a shop tune it.

Jordon
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2008, 03:33 PM
Jmark's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: phoenix
Age: 61
Posts: 4,786
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
The phoenix test is pay for the first, get the second free. Third test costs again, then next is free. Kinda sucks but usually, they pass, unless something is very wrong.

12% CO is about choking rich! My old '77 chevy truck usually idles at 3% and runs (45mph) at about 2%.

With 12% CO (was it at idle or "loaded"? ) something is wrong. NOX could also be a bad EGR valve. With that many miles, you may have to take it somewhere to have it checked over good. It may have multiple problems causing the mega high CO and now high NOX.

Mark
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2008, 03:36 PM
carsavvycook's Avatar
My 2 cents worth
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Lakeside, CA
Age: 57
Posts: 2,855
Wiki Edits: 3

Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Low CO and high NOX indicate a lean mixture.

Check for an exhaust leak prior to the O'2 sensor. (like the manifold, or, flange gasket)

Replace your fuel filter if you have not replaced it within the last 30K miles.

Also check for a 'loose', or 'worn' timing belt. This can cause the 'intake' cam to be 'retarded' by a few degrees, causing a lack of enough fuel to the air/fuel mixture, leaning it out. The timing belt has a recommended replacement interval of 120K miles.

The O'2 sensor, could be at fault, along with the catalytic converter it's self, but I almost doubt it.

A 'chunk' of carbon stuck in the EGR Valve (holding it open) could also cause this.

Last edited by carsavvycook; 10-19-2008 at 03:40 PM. Reason: addition
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2008, 03:46 PM
redlightning's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: TN
Age: 49
Posts: 1,082
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 9 Times in 3 Posts
Those cars usually pass.Does it have a miss at about 1800rpm under light acceleration?
If so your egr ports are plugged and need to be cleaned.
And when was the last time it was tested? Was there anything done between the last time and this time? Timing belt?







These cars are speed density.A tight valve could also cause it to go rich.When was the last time they were adjusted?

Last edited by redlightning; 10-19-2008 at 05:35 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2008, 03:49 PM
Jmark's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: phoenix
Age: 61
Posts: 4,786
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
CSC.......he failed with High CO.

Also, was this failure showing in "grams per mile" or in "percent"? The IM240 test is "grams per mile" and the older stuff is measured in "percent". Might help to know which one, but i'll suspect that his is GPM, unlike mine as being in %. Actually, all my vehicles are %. My newest one is an '86.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2008, 04:20 PM
carsavvycook's Avatar
My 2 cents worth
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Lakeside, CA
Age: 57
Posts: 2,855
Wiki Edits: 3

Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmark
CSC.......he failed with High CO.

Also, was this failure showing in "grams per mile" or in "percent"? The IM240 test is "grams per mile" and the older stuff is measured in "percent". Might help to know which one, but i'll suspect that his is GPM, unlike mine as being in %. Actually, all my vehicles are %. My newest one is an '86.
Yes, I was wrong, I was thinking CO'2 Percent.

High CO% indicates a 'rich' mixture, and high NOX indicates a "Lean' mixture.

A plugged fuel filter will cause a 'cylinder' miss-fire (too rich) along with an active HO'2 sensor telling the computer to 'lean' me out. The end result would be high NOX, and High CO% readings.

I recommend a fuel pressure test, along with checking for any exhaust leaks prior to the HO'2 sensor.

The timing belt is still in the equation though.

Another thought comes to mind, of an aftermarket 'oil' based air intake system contaminating the 'mass air flow' sensor. This will also cause a 'miss-fire'(high CO% and high NOX)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2008, 04:27 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: phoenix
Posts: 4
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
re: Phoenix area emission failed twice

Thank you very much for your suggestions.

Here are the results from test 1
Gas Cap: Pass
Pressure: Pass
EVAP: Pass
HC : 0.73 gm/mile (standrard: 1):: Pass
CO: 12.16 gm/mil (standard: 12):: "FAIL"
NOX: 1.93 gm/mile (standard: 2.5):: Pass

It was never tested before for emission, coz I was in ST louis and Charlotte, where only safety tests are required for old cars.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2008, 04:39 PM
Jmark's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: phoenix
Age: 61
Posts: 4,786
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
A plugged fuel filter will cause a 'cylinder' miss-fire (too rich) along with an active HO'2 sensor telling the computer to 'lean' me out. The end result would be high NOX, and High CO% readings.

Maybe i'm not reading this right but if the fuel filter is plugged, why would it cause a "too rich" misfire? A plugged filter will starve the engine for fuel, resulting in a lean misfire or complete stall.

A "lean miss" or as I learned it years ago, a "rolling miss" is an acceptable (yea, that's what they said! LOL) amount of misfire due to a very lean mixture at idle.

CO is burned gas.

HC is raw gas.

A lean miss will result in a higher than normal (or acceptable) HC reading as the fuel is not burned and passed right out.

A rich mixture will give a higher than normal (or acceptable) CO reading. IE: way too much gas is being burned in the cylinder.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2008, 05:11 PM
King of my Man-cave.
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Michigan
Age: 55
Posts: 2,838
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
A faulty or coated O2 sensor will make the engine run too rich.

tom
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fabricating intake manifold. gemini86 Engine 25 10-02-2009 01:10 PM
painting a small area question - help! hutch535 Body - Exterior 5 08-29-2003 07:09 AM
new york area yards? mshellw Hotrodders' Lounge 0 06-14-2003 07:31 AM
las cruces area? dinger Hotrodders' Lounge 1 05-03-2002 07:22 AM
emission testing its_all_good Engine 3 03-01-2002 06:24 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.