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Old 03-29-2003, 11:30 AM
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Post pinion nut

i have a '72 C10 while checking my u-joints in search of a vibration problem, I noticed the nut that retains my pinion yoke was loose. Can someone help me with this one? What would cause this to happen? Can I just torque it up a little or Am I going to find myself rebuilding the whole axle? thank for any input....B/w72

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Old 03-29-2003, 11:35 AM
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I have seen them come loose. If it were mine I would take the nut off, clean it and the pinion threads with brake cleaner, apply some red loctite and put it back on. It doesn't need to be real tight, you don't want to change the crush sleeve any so maybe 30 foot pounds.
And go from there. See how it drives and check for noises.
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Old 03-29-2003, 05:15 PM
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72, that is supposed to be a locker nut and I beleive it has a specific torque. Locktite if you want, but put the proper torque on it.

Trees
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Old 03-29-2003, 06:02 PM
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This nut does not have a specific torque. When the rear is set up it has to be tightened until a specified amount of torque is required to turn the pinion. I would locktight it and tighten it to about 30 ft. Lbs. Then take a punch and peen the end of the nut to the threads. Basically you are making a bad place in the threads so the nut will not be able to back off. The rear should have made a whining noise when you decelerated since the loose nut would have allowed the pinion to move away from the ring gear. I have seen this condition on several GM products. Hope this helps, Toni

[ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: hrracecar ]</p>
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Old 03-29-2003, 08:37 PM
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Concidering it takes over 100 lbs of torque to crush a sleeve, I cant see it staying tight with a 30 lb retighten. Dont have a book in front of me, but I bet there is a spec.

Chris
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Old 03-29-2003, 09:11 PM
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The reason why your pinion nut was loose is because something collapsed the crush sleeve more than the original preload did. What causes that? Dropping the clutch at high rpm, or any other heavy overload of the driveline. This is the main reason why drag racers toss the collapseable sleeve and go with a solid machined spacer.

Retorqueing the nut will not bring the pinion back into spec. If you do a backlash check on the ring gear you will find it to be excessive and this will eventually destroy both the pinion and the ring gear. Pull the cover and check the backlash with a dial indicator, if it is still in spec consider yourself lucky. Likely you'll find it is too much and the axle needs to be rebuilt with a new crush sleeve and torqueing procedure to ensure proper bearing preload. You might be able to pull the yoke reinstall a new crush sleeve and retorque but I don't recommend it, it's loose for a reason.

The other possibility is so much wear has taken place in the bearings on the pinion that the crush sleeve reached the end of it's "spring" and is no longer doing it's job of maintaining the proper preload on the pinion bearings, in either case a rebuild is in order.

The reason why mfg's don't use a machined spacer is because it does not expand to accomodate wear in the pinion bearings and is much more expensive to set up.

If you do nothing but retorque the nut then you are inviting disaster in the future. There is no retorque spec on a crushed sleeve because torquing the pinion is a one time deal. I imagine your loose pinion is causing a portion of your vibration problem.

There is a guy here on the forum that rebuilds axles for a living and he can back this up. Where are you Axle Bastard?

[ March 30, 2003: Message edited by: 4 Jaw Chuck ]</p>
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Old 03-30-2003, 04:37 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by TurboS10:
<strong>Concidering it takes over 100 lbs of torque to crush a sleeve, I cant see it staying tight with a 30 lb retighten. Dont have a book in front of me, but I bet there is a spec.

Chris</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes it takes sometimes 300 foot pounds to get the sleeve to crush but this would be a new sleeve. The idea in this one situation is to snug the nut down onto the sleeve but not crush it any more.
No one can predict what happened to cause the nut to back off, for all we know someone may have changed the seal and not tightened it enough.
I don't care how many professionals have "done it right" and swear it's the only way, they have to protect their ***** to avoid a call back. I have tightened several pinion nuts as I described
on vehicles I keep track of like my own, my family and friends. You know when one of them fails. The pros only know of a failure when the customer brings it back which doesn't always happen.
If you want an answer that will ensure your rear end will never fail here it is, have it totally rebuilt ,
if you want to take a chance and do something several people have done with success just tighten the nut. Thats about a $600-$1200 difference---you decide. Anyway if tightening the nut guarantees a failure (which depends on personal opinion) your still stuck to rebuilt the whole rear.
I would tighten the nut and drive off.
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Old 03-30-2003, 05:03 AM
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You know 'technicaly' 4-Jaw is right as always but I will say there are also many times that we do things in the field that you're not supposed to with limited side effects. Since I know that every time I replace a leaky pinion seal I remove that nut only to retighten it just enough to keep it on without crushing the collar any more I would probably try Jasons idea as well. If the rear goes south then you're rebuilding anyway. I have also had the oportunity to see cars with front end hub bearings making noise (FWD bearing assemblies pressed into steering knuckle) only to find out some hack didn't tighten down the axle nut and it came loose causing noise and some nice play in the front end. Now ideally you should remove the knuckle, replace the bearing, and then reinstall. On more than one occasion I have simply retightened the axle nut and that's all, a definate 'by the book' no-no. In the long run it's up to the owner, fix it right immediately for no future worries or take a 50/50 chance to save some out-of-pocket cash right now.

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Old 03-30-2003, 07:23 AM
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Makes sense to me now. I see what you are saying, Jason. 30 ft/lbs just sounds like so little concidering the original pressure used to set the sleeve. I guess if all the spring is gone, it is all you can do.

chris
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Old 03-30-2003, 07:54 AM
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[quote]Since I know that every time I replace a leaky pinion seal I remove that nut only to retighten it just enough to keep it on without crushing the collar any more...<hr></blockquote>

How about measuring break-a-way torque? Wouldn't that take some of the guess work out of it?

[quote]Now ideally you should remove the knuckle, replace the bearing, and then reinstall.<hr></blockquote>

Remove the steering knuckle?

<a href="http://www.otctools.com/flash/Hubtamer.swf" target="_blank">-Hub Tamer-</a>
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Old 03-30-2003, 10:21 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by KULTULZ:
<strong>

Remove the steering knuckle?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, remove the steering knuckle. Unless you have a Hub Shark or equivalent it's the only way you are going to press in a new bearing assembly on a FWD car. I have tried cheaper units and they suck not to mention they beat the tar out of your impact gun since that is what drives out the bearing assembly with those devises. Our shop, as do most, has a hydaulic press and on most cars I just assume take out the knuckle and use the shops press.



[ March 30, 2003: Message edited by: dmorris1200 ]</p>
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Old 03-30-2003, 10:31 AM
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One more note, one of the guys I work with had a HUBSTER (think that was what it was called). It looked exactly like the Hub Tamer in the video clip. It sucked. The only thing I could say about that tool is things aren't always as good as they're advertised to be. The Hub Shark is much sturdier but with all adapters runs about $600 and still beats the tar out of your impact gun.

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Old 03-30-2003, 10:41 AM
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And yes, these are just my opinions. There are probably guys who don't mind hammering their impact gun for ten minutes driving out a bearing assembly (some really fight ya) but I prefer a press if available. I suppose if your a do it yourselfer at your house renting one of those from your local auto parts stores might not be a bad idea but I would still probably rather take the knuckle out and take it to a shop with a press and have it done that way. JUST MY OPINION!



[ March 30, 2003: Message edited by: dmorris1200 ]</p>
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Old 03-30-2003, 12:24 PM
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Uh...Did you click on the link I gave for the Hub Tamer? And it is nowheres near six hundred dollars.

Hub Shark-
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Old 03-30-2003, 02:40 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by KULTULZ:
<strong>Uh...Did you click on the link I gave for the Hub Tamer? And it is nowheres near six hundred dollars.

<a href="http://www.firsttechtools.com/hub_shark.htm" target="_blank">Hub Shark-</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

Uh... yes I did. Take a second to figure it out. The Hub Shark is $400 online, now tack on the mark-up from the tool truck driver and that's just about the $600 the guy I work with paid for it (give or take a few dollars-it was an estimate you know).

Uh... I will repeat again... in my opinion the Hub Tamer is a cheap knock-off of the Hub Shark and I wouldn't buy it.

Uh...also again why would I want to beat a couple hundred dollar impact gun to death with either of those tools when I have a hydraulic press at my disposal???? You do realize I can remove most steering knuckles in a matter of minutes to use the press.?.



[ March 30, 2003: Message edited by: dmorris1200 ]</p>
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