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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007, 02:24 PM
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O.K., he says he has a 327 small journal block and a verified 265-283-302 crank by casting #. The Nylen piston # is for a 327.so; he's got an awfully low compression 302 cid motor because that piston has got to be way below deck unless a longer rod has been used; and then what would that rod be from? He's got a lot of mismatched parts that don't add up unless I'm missing something here. I understand the math, just not the parts being used. Where's NAIRB? I think he's the one who mentioned the use of Ford 352 "FE" pistons to make a low buck 301/302 Chevrolet. Anyone else see my point? BUTCH.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junior stocker
O.K., he says he has a 327 small journal block and a verified 265-283-302 crank by casting #. The Nylen piston # is for a 327.so; he's got an awfully low compression 302 cid motor because that piston has got to be way below deck unless a longer rod has been used; and then what would that rod be from? He's got a lot of mismatched parts that don't add up unless I'm missing something here. I understand the math, just not the parts being used. Where's NAIRB? I think he's the one who mentioned the use of Ford 352 "FE" pistons to make a low buck 301/302 Chevrolet. Anyone else see my point? BUTCH.
You are correct.

A 327 piston will be waaaaaay down in the hole....
He either needs an odd rod of 5.940 or the 302 pistons.

or a 6.0 rod and the top of the pistons milled to zero deck.... which might be 9.020"
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Old 02-15-2007, 07:02 PM
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What about 6.000 rods ......that should bring the pistons close to the top of the deck and maybe a little bit above deck.Maybe they did that and used like a .040-.060 thickness head gasket.

Not to highjack this thread but Would it be possible to use a block that will accept oem rollercam use hydraulic rollerlifters and a normal hydraulic cam(I understand that there is about a thousandth of an inch taper fron the crown of the lobe to promote normal lifters to turn)But with the dogbones(I thinkthats what there called)that keep them from turning would that thousandth od an inch varrience be much of an issue.Would it be ok to do this on a low reving mild 350?

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Shane
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007, 07:17 PM
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So then, "HYARBOUR"-Howard ,you have an EXTREMELY low compression 301/302; unless some special rod lenth was used, and that's doubtful based on the montage of parts used. Are you reassembling the short block the same way and just going to different heads? Or are you going to use the correct crank for the pistons and rods and make it a 327 again (3.25" stroke crank)? How did this engine run? The compression ration would have been something like 4 or 5:1. I'm not trying to tick anyone off here, just trying to settle this in my mind. I know a lot of folks seem hung up on the 301/302 "myth", and with todays smaller, lighter cars a lower compression 301/302 with opened up 305 or Vortec heads would be a real blast to drive. Just my opinion. BUTCH. NAIRB,CNC,MACHINE SHOP TOM, you're thoughts are needed here.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevrolet4x4s
What about 6.000 rods ......that should bring the pistons close to the top of the deck and maybe a little bit above deck.Maybe they did that and used like a .040-.060 thickness head gasket.

Not to highjack this thread but Would it be possible to use a block that will accept oem rollercam use hydraulic rollerlifters and a normal hydraulic cam(I understand that there is about a thousandth of an inch taper fron the crown of the lobe to promote normal lifters to turn)But with the dogbones(I thinkthats what there called)that keep them from turning would that thousandth od an inch varrience be much of an issue.Would it be ok to do this on a low reving mild 350?

Thanks
Shane
Roller cams are made of steel, flat tappet cams are cast iron. So NO.
The lobe shapes are totally not compatable for mixed parts. No way shape form or fashion. If you look at a roller lifter from the side, it is round. If you look at a flat tappet lifter from the side it is a rectangle. They cannot be interchanged with the shape of the cam lobe.

You can put flat tappet cams in a roller block,
or vice versa with the roller kit.

Piston height must be kept .040+ from the head. Juggling head gaskets and pistons is possible. Watch that intake manifold fit if you get too thick of head gaskets.

Last edited by xntrik; 02-15-2007 at 07:36 PM.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007, 07:29 PM
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Ford FE 352 pistons are 1.836-1.842 on the compression height. They're 4.000" diameter and use a 0.975" pin. Add half the stroke of a 302 (1.625"). rod length (5.700") and the compression height of the Ford piston (1.840") and you get 9.040", just right for a 9.025" block and a 0.050" to 0.055"
gasket to achieve 0.035" to 0.040" squish. Bore the pin end of the rod larger by 0.048" and you're in.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007, 07:59 PM
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Techinspector1, That's it! Just hone the little end of the Chevrolet rod to Ford FE pin size. Plus "rebuilder" style pistons tend to have .020 off the tops so that actually helps compression height. Now someone do it so we can all see the results.BUTCH.
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Old 02-15-2007, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xntrik
Roller cams are made of steel, flat tappet cams are cast iron. So NO.
The lobe shapes are totally not compatable for mixed parts. No way shape form or fashion. If you look at a roller lifter from the side, it is round. If you look at a flat tappet lifter from the side it is a rectangle. They cannot be interchanged with the shape of the cam lobe.

You can put flat tappet cams in a roller block,
or vice versa with the roller kit.

Piston height must be kept .040+ from the head. Juggling head gaskets and pistons is possible. Watch that intake manifold fit if you get too thick of head gaskets.
Thats what I thought ........ heard somewhere that you could do it and another place that you couldnt........mabe they were talking about putting them on a solid cam would that make a difference. Its a whole lot better to ask than to try it and ruin an engine
thanks
Shane
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junior stocker
Techinspector1, That's it! Just hone the little end of the Chevrolet rod to Ford FE pin size. Plus "rebuilder" style pistons tend to have .020 off the tops so that actually helps compression height. Now someone do it so we can all see the results.BUTCH.
I forgot about the valve reliefs.....you'd probably have to cut your own with an Isky tool or a tool you fashioned yourself. I have used an old valve and brazed a cutting tool onto it myself to cut the valve reliefs in small block Ford pistons.
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Old 02-15-2007, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevrolet4x4s
Thats what I thought ........ heard somewhere that you could do it and another place that you couldnt........mabe they were talking about putting them on a solid cam would that make a difference. Its a whole lot better to ask than to try it and ruin an engine
thanks
Shane

You can't mix roller parts with flat tappet parts. period


I've read of people putting hydraulic flat tappets on a solid flat tappet cam, for a dyno test only, for a true back to back test,

but generally I would advise against such antics as you will not know the outcome until toooooo late.

If you put a flat tappet on a roller cam, the edge of the lifter would dig into the lobe and the cam would not even turn one round. In fact, if you tried it, the lifters sit up soooo high the push rods would be 1/2 inch too long on the upslope and 1/2 inch too short on the base circle. Look at one and study it out.
If you put a roller on a flat tappet lobe, the lift and duration would be waaaay short of the specs. Lose maybe 70* duration and lift all the way around except at the top of the lobe.
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Old 02-15-2007, 11:19 PM
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Any chance the rods might be 5.85"? It seems to me it would make a 327 and a 283 crank work together.

1.5" crank (283) + 1.675" piston (stock 327) + 5.85" rod = 9.025"
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2007, 11:35 PM
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Yes, but his engine was thrown together with whatever parts could be scrounged up it sounds like. It even had a 60cc head on one bank and 70cc on the other; used 327 rebuilder pistons. How would anyone find a one off set of small journal rods to put this together. I still think it sounds like the piston was way down in the hole but this has'nt been confirmed yet. Those Ford FE 352 pistons I was refering to do have 4 valve reliefs; but are they correctly spaced to work with SBC heads? Then if they had to be flycut differently there goes some compression. I've got enough SBC projects going on and I'd like to see someone else try this budget 301/302. BUTCH.
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Old 02-16-2007, 08:44 AM
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re:Pistons

Thanks Techinspector1.
I guess I'll start saving up for the right pistons. Anyone want a set of 327 pistons and rods? If I got to go that route I'll get full floating.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 02-16-2007, 11:37 AM
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I'd just get a small journal 327 crank and go from there;cheaper overall and would require "less" in the way of drivetrain components.
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Old 02-16-2007, 01:24 PM
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re:Pistons

I was thinking of going to a wide ratio 5 speed tranny to compensate for the 302's lack of low end and my 3.73 rear end should help, that and an offy cross-ram would diffinately be something nice to look at.
As for the pistons; I'll just get the right ones and some forged rods and proceed from there. I came across the pistons for $250-300, forged full floating type, still have to decide on what final compression ratio I want.
Thanks for everyones input
Howard
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