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Old 08-03-2010, 06:51 AM
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Planning 434 build for mud drag s10, need help

I just want to bounce a few ideas off you guys and see what you think. I have a 03 s10 2wd single cab that I use as my daily driver. One of my hobbies is mud racing, and I currently drive an old 78 blazer. Me and my friends have build several mud trucks, and I want to build one with my s10. In december i'm buying a new duramax, and I will have the s10 to play with. The mud drags are in shallow mud pits and the typical race is 300'.

I have planned to swap to another rear axle and do a SFA on it. I also want to build a 434 sbc to put in it. I plan to buy a DART 400 block to start with and the baddest set of iron heads I can find. I want to go with light, strong internals that i can spin into the 7000-7500rpm range along with a cam/headwork to get it there. Will be going with a small base 1050 carb, and single plane intake. I have to have iron heads/block as well as the aforementioned carb and 14" vacuum to stay in the class that I want to be in so that limits me on some things. i also want to put a built TH-350 behind it and np-20(3,5,or8) xfer case if possible. Also plan on running 14-14.5-1 CR

This will be my first big horsepower build so I want to do my homework on this.

I realize that I may have a hard time making this horsepower and pulling 14" of vacuum at idle, but I've seen a few others doing it and pulling 18" at idle. I'm afraid my cam is going to limit me.

I am trying to decide between a dart little m block or iron eagle. As far as I can tell the only real difference is the 9.025 or 9.325 deck height options and raised cam location. Which do you guys suggest?

One problem I found is that the typical 434 is 4" stroke and 6" rods. This means my rod/stroke = 1.5 which is less than the "ideal" 1.55 or greater. Will this be a problem. I have seen where it is possible to use 6.2" rods but I don't know what has to be done to do that.

I mentioned that I wanted a 14.5-1 compression, but wanted to ask you guys if you thought going higher would be a good thing?

I found this on another website:
http://www.racingjunk.com/category/9...LE-FORGED.html
The only problem I see with this is that I would have to spend a little more to get the upgraded block since I want to get into the 800hp range.

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Old 08-03-2010, 11:46 AM
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Also, just to provide a little more info, I plan to run 4.56 gears. Typically, the name of the game is instant, continuous wheelspeed. My friend does well in his 78 ford 3/4 ton with a 466 with minor headwork+ oversize valves, 4500+ rpm stall, 4.56 gears, strengthened stock tranny with np205 t-case, qf 1050cfm carb, high rise single plane intake, updraft headers, 14.x-1 compression ratio.

Given this info, you guys might be able to suggest any changes to my current combo. My s10 will be required to weigh 4000lbs when I finish so that would be a good estimate of weight. Probably going with th-350 for my transmission. Plan to run 35" super swampers

Any suggestions on decent iron heads and cam?
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Old 08-03-2010, 02:17 PM
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I don't know but I'd say 14:1 compression and 18" of vacuum and 800 hp from a small block don't add up.
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Old 08-03-2010, 02:59 PM
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If this is a matter of lbs per cubic inch, I'd rather use a BBC 427. Waaayyy easier (and probably cheaper) to make the power you want in my opinion.
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Old 08-03-2010, 03:31 PM
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Big block anything for this if the rules allow..

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Old 08-03-2010, 06:34 PM
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I see your point.. Big block is a great way to go. I don't know how well it would fit in my s10 though. What would I need to do to say a 454 to get it to 800hp? I really don't know big blocks that well. What can I realistically stroke it to?

BTW: My truck will have to weigh 4200lbs instead of 4000 if I go with a BBC.
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Old 08-03-2010, 06:49 PM
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Yeah I agree on the vacuum/hp/small block thing. We have seen and suspected a bunch of cheating going on at the other track. Matter of fact we busted several people at another track where me and a couple friends work as the tech crew.

It was extremely hard to get my friends truck with the 466 to 18" last year. He did every trick he knew of including rhoads lifters, total seal rings, and setting valve lash a little loose. We estimated 600-650 hp in his truck last year. We rebuilt it this year and put the bigger carb, updraft headers, single plane intake, and a couple other goodies in it and now we can't get more than 15" of vacuum. Which is good since he decided to run 14" class this year.
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plutonium233
I don't know how well it would fit in my s10 though.
Your saying this tells me that you are not yet a hardcore hot rodder. With the proper tools, ANYTHING WILL FIT ANYTHING. You just keep cuttin' stuff out of the way until it fits. Then you weld back some of the stuff you need. If you didn't need it, cap it off and go.
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plutonium233
We estimated 600-650 hp in his truck last year.
Ah, OK, now I see how it works. So the 600/650/800 hp figures come off the top of your head, not as a result of a dyno pull. BIIIIIIG DIFFERENCE.

Are there just 2 classes, small block and big block, with no reference to pounds per cubic inch?
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Old 08-04-2010, 12:44 AM
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With a plasma cutter and a welder i can get most anything in anything..I would be working on getting the car to hookup well and then worry about motor if I were out to win..

http://www.racetec.cc/shope/ take a look at this..although you are in mud the principles still hold about setting up a suspension..

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Old 08-04-2010, 07:22 AM
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That truck actually did dyno 611 rwhp. The reason we estimated 600-650 was because of several changes and performance mods we made to it that would invalidate his original number. As for the 800hp... i'm with you, those came from other racers by word of mouth; and you know how that goes.

OneMoreTime: Thanks for the info! There's some good information there. Some of it I can use here, but some I can't because of the rules on suspension. The biggest thing we run into is track variability as the day goes on which is why the random lane choice can be a big gamble. What we do is not entirely unlike dirt drags. As a matter of fact, several dirt drag trucks do well in the mud drags around here.

As far as making a big block fit: I know that I can make it fit, and I have done some figuring and research on it. Heck, I've even helped with that exact swap before. I just got the idea that I wanted to do the big cube small block build in my head and it stuck. I assumed that I would be saving myself some work by going with the small block, but it seems that I'll spend more effort and money getting the horsepower out of it than I would spend putting the big block in. Realistically, the small block may not be the best option, and I hope that you guys can get me on the right track. That's the main reason I'm posting here so I can open my mind to all my options. Actually since no-one else runs s10's and the like, I would feel comfortable in the 700hp range.

I also want to go ahead and say that I am not the most experienced in hot rodding. I know a lot, but I'm young enough that I haven't been exposed to all they things you guys have. That's why I'm here.

I'm posting the rules below so you guys can see what I'm working with.


•STREET STOCK
1.No tire size limit - must be D.O.T. approved - non cut tire
2.All trucks must go on three mile cruise with tech man before any racing begins
3.Must have all stock engine components from the carburetor to the oil pan, water pump to the flywheel
4.Must contain all stock drive train components bumper to bumper
5.Modified exhaust & air cleaners are ok
6.Must run stock intake, may run after market carburetor up to 650 CFM
7.Minimal weight rule: Small Block 4,000 lbs.; Big Block 4,200 lbs.
8.Don't cheat

•0 - 44" STOCK BOG VACUUM
1.Small Block maximum 434 CID
2.Big Block maximum 477 CID
3.Must be a full bodied vehicle
4.All windows must be in vehicle - if you don't have stock glass it must be lexan - no exceptions
5.Engine must pull 18" of vacuum at 1,000 rpm
6.No vacuum pumps or any vacuum device allowed
7.All vehicles will be checked before & after race
8.D.O.T. approved tires only - no cuts or paddles
9.No nitrous, blowers, alcohol, injection, or turbos
10.No excessive gutting to vehicle, with an exception to dash removal - excessive gutting will make you qualify for a different class ex. (modified - or super mod)
11.Any steel head can be ran
12.Aluminum intake allowed - must be dual plane (no high rise)
13.Any small base carburetor
14.OEM suspension, top bar ok, no traction bar or traction devices
15.Minimal weight rule: Small Block 4,000 lbs.; Big Block 4,200 lbs.
16.Don't cheat

•SUPER STOCK
1.Small Block maximum 434 CID
2.Big Block maximum 477 CID
3.Must be a full bodied vehicle
4.All windows must be in vehicle - if you don't have stock glass it must be lexan - no exceptions
5.Engine must pull 14" of vacuum at 1,000 rpm
6.No vacuum pumps or any vacuum device allowed
7.All vehicles will be checked before & after race
8.D.O.T. approved tires only - no cuts or paddles
9.No nitrous, blowers, alcohol, injection, or turbos
10.No excessive gutting to vehicle, with an exception to dash removal - excessive gutting will make you qualify for a different class ex. (modified - or super mod)
11.Any steel head can be ran
12.Aluminum intake allowed
13.Any small base carburetor
14.OEM suspension, top bar ok, no traction bar or traction devices
15.Minimal weight rule: Small Block 4,000 lbs.; Big Block 4,200 lbs.
16.Must have 6 point roll cage, five point harness, fire extinguisher
17.Don't cheat

•0 - 44" MODIFIED SMALL BOG
1.Full body trucks only
2.No nitrous, blowers, hot injection, turbos
3.Race fuel, alcohol is allowed
4.One single aspirated carburetor ok any size or type
5.Any aluminum conventional type head ok (no big chief or big chief type allowed)
6.Must have front windshield
7.Excessive gutting is allowed
8.Must have 6 point roll cage, five point harness, fire extinguisher
9.540 cubic inch rule maximum
10.D.O.T. approved tire, any size allowed
11.Any suspension allowed
12.Minimal weight rule: Small Block 4,000 lbs.; Big Block 4,200 lbs.

•SUPER MODIFIED
1.Any tires, cuts or paddle ok
2.200 shot of nitrous is allowed and will be checked
3.Trucks or buggy's allowed
4.Single carburetor only
5.Any fuel, any cubic inch
6.Must have 6 point roll cage, five point harness, fire extinguisher, etc...
7.No weight limit
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Old 08-04-2010, 09:34 AM
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I wanna see a set of those steel heads....LOL...The best thing you can do for that 18" rule is to start with 477 CID and go from there.
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:03 AM
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I'm glad you posted that about the 477 and 18". Originally, I wanted to stick with 14" class and maybe run modified too. My question, and I have to phrase this carefully, is: given the 18" class rules and a 477ish cid engine, how much horsepower should I be able to reasonably obtain?

More importantly: other than valve lash, cam profile, and lifter type, what do I need to focus on internally to acheive 18" or 14" of vacuum at 1000rpm? It was implied that the larger displacement engines will be easier to get higher vacuum from, which make sense I suppose, because each cylinder has more space it has to fill on each intake stroke.

The reason I am standing back and re-evaluating what class I want to run in is because most trucks will be in the 18" class. For some reason, everyone tries extremely hard to stay in this class. This is also where a lot of cheating has gone on trying to run in this class. Personally, I would love to run in the class since it is so competitive.

You guys have really got me thinking about this from square one again. The only thing that is for certain now is that whatever I build will be going into my s10. I made this decision because it is light, I already own it, and it is a good platform to build on since it is so well documented.

Last edited by plutonium233; 08-04-2010 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 08-04-2010, 01:10 PM
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How do they verify the 477"?
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Old 08-04-2010, 03:49 PM
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To be honest. There are a handful of those rules that they really single out. and then there's some that they never even look at when teching in. The displacement is one of those that isn't really looked at. However, there is provision for someone to challenge a person on their legitimacy. Both parties put up 50 bucks then things get investigated. Whoever wins the challenge gets 50 bucks and the other 50 goes to the track owner. I have never seen this happen though. I suppose if someone is winning every race or something, it might raise some eyebrows. I know of a couple people that are allegedly breaking the displacement rules, but no one has wanted to put up the money for a challenge.
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