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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2013, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
If after trying the cam you got, you find it a little too much and want to tame it down
a notch try Lunati Cam #401A6LUN 276/284 243/251 @.050" .518"/.530" 110LSA 104in C/L .026" (hot)

Will also work real well with the RPM Dual Quad air gap Dual Plane High rise induction system , 3000 stall and 3.73's.
A nice hi-perf street mechanical.
OK, I'm an equal-opportunity kind of guy, let's build it.....

Cam Spec Card :: Lunati Power

Cam made max power installed retarded 4 degrees on these numbers.....
IO (13.5)
IC (49.5)
EO (57.5)
EC (13.5)

RPM...HP...TQ
2000...146...384
2500...193...405
3000...246...431
3500...311...466
4000...378...496
4500...442...516
5000...503...530
5500...534...510
6000...552...483
6500...548...443

Max volumetric efficiency 104.1% @5000 (Best cam tested for efficiency)
Max BMEP 208.3 lbs @5000 (Best cam tested for cylinder packing)

Edelbrock dual-quad RPM intake mounting two 500's makes 565 hp @6000 and 537 ft/lbs of torque @5000.

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Old 05-15-2013, 04:01 PM
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Just for grins, let's run the small Howards hydraulic roller cam with the Edelbrock RPM 2-4bbl intake and two 500's and see what happens.....
Cam is installed on these 0.050" numbers....
IO (-0.5)
IC (39.5)
EO (42.5)
EC (-1.5)

RPM...HP...TQ
2000...168...442
2500...217...457
3000...278...486
3500...339...509
4000...400...525
4500...447...522
5000...493...517
5500...505...482
6000...495...433

Peak volumetric efficiency 96.5% @5000
Peak BMEP 206.4 lbs @4000

There's your daily driver motor, with enough torque to tear street tires off the wheels for a good eighth mile.
A guy could add ~20 hp to this combination with a good set of roller rockers. Not those fosdick sliding ball trunnion pieces of crap from Comp, but real roller rockers with a roller trunnion and roller tip. Scorpion is a good brand. Good price, good quality. Harland Sharp is maybe the top of the heap. Do not succomb to the offshore allure of Chinese rockers.

Last edited by techinspector1; 05-15-2013 at 04:30 PM.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2013, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
Unless you plan on cruising around at 5,000+ rpm on the street, OR you're going to spend a lot of time on the track, I can't find a single reason to no use the smaller one. What do you mean by steeper gears? 6.14?

The bigger cam has less power until about 4500 rpm, and at 3,000 rpm (which is where you'll be at most of the time with those 3.73 gears) you give up 50ftlb! 50ftlb is HUGE.

You can get whatever cam you like, but realize that bigger cams will actually make you SLOWER on the street.

On the track where you shift at 6,000+ RPM its an entirely different scenario.

Take it from someone who has BTDT, you want the power where you drive, not off in some space on your tach that the needle will never see.


Well I was just thinking with these heads I would be able to utilize a little larger cam, and to the possibility of more gears (4.10-4.56) and a OD tranny in the future. But that's just a idea at this point. It's sounds like the smaller one would be the way to go. And I know it's a trivial newbie thing, but I also like the rougher idle of the larger one! lol But I also don't want to have a car that sounds mean but can't back it up, I've seen plenty of those around here!

I can't thank everyone enough for all the help, this place is great!

Last edited by Sixshooter45; 05-15-2013 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 05-15-2013, 04:19 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
OK, I'm an equal-opportunity kind of guy, let's build it.....

Cam Spec Card :: Lunati Power

Cam made max power installed retarded 4 degrees on these numbers.....
IO (13.5)
IC (49.5)
EO (57.5)
EC (13.5)

RPM...HP...TQ
2000...146...384
2500...193...405
3000...246...431
3500...311...466
4000...378...496
4500...442...516
5000...503...530
5500...534...510
6000...552...483
6500...548...443

Max volumetric efficiency 104.1% @5000 (Best cam tested for efficiency)
Max BMEP 208.3 lbs @5000 (Best cam tested for cylinder packing)

Edelbrock dual-quad RPM intake mounting two 500's makes 565 hp @6000 and 537 ft/lbs of torque @5000.
Does your simulator take an accurate account of lash? What program do you use, finding one that has a reasonable cost and does a good job of solid vs hydraulic cams is a hard thing to do.
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Old 05-15-2013, 04:24 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
Just for grins, let's run the small Howards hydraulic roller cam with the Edelbrock RPM 2-4bbl intake and two 500's and see what happens.....
Cam is installed on these 0.050" numbers....
IO (-0.5)
IC (39.5)
EO (42.5)
EC (-1.5)

RPM...HP...TQ
2000...168...442
2500...217...457
3000...278...486
3500...339...509
4000...400...525
4500...447...522
5000...493...517
5500...505...482
6000...495...433

Peak volumetric efficiency 96.5% @5000
Peak BMEP 206.4 lbs @4000

There's your daily driver motor, with enough torque to tear the tires off the wheels.
Switch that to an EFI ram style injection system and you're really cooking- unfortunately their not a cheap set up. Properly tuned I could see 17-19 mpg's though. That would make a nice cruiser, fill up only once for a nice Saturday day trip to the country or the shore (depending on your location).
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Old 05-15-2013, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
Just for grins, let's run the small Howards hydraulic roller cam with the Edelbrock RPM 2-4bbl intake and two 500's and see what happens.....
Cam is installed on these 0.050" numbers....
IO (-0.5)
IC (39.5)
EO (42.5)
EC (-1.5)

RPM...HP...TQ
2000...168...442
2500...217...457
3000...278...486
3500...339...509
4000...400...525
4500...447...522
5000...493...517
5500...505...482
6000...495...433

Peak volumetric efficiency 96.5% @5000
Peak BMEP 206.4 lbs @4000

There's your daily driver motor, with enough torque to tear street tires off the wheels for a good eighth mile.
A guy could add ~20 hp to this combination with a good set of roller rockers. Not those fosdick sliding ball trunnion pieces of crap from Comp, but real roller rockers with a roller trunnion and roller tip. Scorpion is a good brand. Good price, good quality. Harland Sharp is maybe the top of the heap. Do not succomb to the offshore allure of Chinese rockers.


Wow. That combo looks great, with some crazy torque numbers across the board!
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Old 05-15-2013, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
Switch that to an EFI ram style injection system and you're really cooking- unfortunately their not a cheap set up. Properly tuned I could see 17-19 mpg's though. That would make a nice cruiser, fill up only once for a nice Saturday day trip to the country or the shore (depending on your location).
Thanks, I'll have to take your word on that. I know absolutely nothing about electronic fuel management and am unwilling to learn.
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Old 05-15-2013, 04:55 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Thanks, I'll have to take your word on that. I know absolutely nothing about electronic fuel management and am unwilling to learn.
I was like that when I got started, then I climbed the steep learning curve and have gotten to the point where I look at a box of jets with disdain.

I will admit the initial learning is steep (just like carbs) but once you do, its just click, click, click, DONE. And real-time logged monitoring of all your sensors- priceless.
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Old 05-15-2013, 05:12 PM
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Ok, so y'all have me sold on that smaller Howards cam. My question is, it looks great with either the dual 500 setup and the 750 DP. Would it be worth it for a beginner like me to go with the dual setup for a little more power? I do have knowledgable friends and family that could help me if I get stumped, but I don't want to get in too far over my head if they are going to be harder to tune. Although they sure do look cool as well!
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Old 05-15-2013, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Sixshooter45 View Post
Wow. That combo looks great, with some crazy torque numbers across the board!
Yep, with some quality roller rockers, that's the motor I'd put in the little stovebolt Chevy of yours. I'd also use all the air cleaner I could fit inside the engine bay. Most fellows, I think, don't consider the breathing necessities of a motor and will choke it down with a tiny little air cleaner element. If you like any of the oval filter housings that Edelbrock makes, stack another filter element on top of the one and make the filter element twice as tall, with taller studs of course. More element square inch area means less differential of vacuum and a cleaner mix when you've got the loud pedal matted. Plus, you have the very cool visuals of a ton of air cleaner. It just looks like a race motor. If you have room, stack 3 elements. That hoodline is fairly bulbous, so it should be possible.
Edelbrock.com - ACCESSORIES - Air Cleaners - Pro-Flo
Edelbrock.com - ACCESSORIES - Air Cleaners - Elite Series
Edelbrock.com - ACCESSORIES - Air Cleaners - Classic Series

One of those washable pre-filter foam pieces that would wrap 3 stacked elements would look cool, particularly if you could use a color that complements the engine bay. The roundy-round guys use 'em to filter mechanical fuel injection systems and they really look racy.

After you get the combination sorted out and running good, experiment with different styles and different thicknesses of carb spacers. You never know what's going to happen. The car could slow down or it could like the additional volume in the intake process and make more power. If you have a wood-working shop or know of someone who has one, you could make your own wooden spacers pretty inexpensively. Wood will also serve as a heat dam to prevent engine heat from getting to the fuel in the carb bowl.

Sorry, I just keep looking around in my brain and thinkin' of stuff.

Last edited by techinspector1; 05-15-2013 at 05:27 PM.
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Old 05-15-2013, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixshooter45 View Post
Ok, so y'all have me sold on that smaller Howards cam. My question is, it looks great with either the dual 500 setup and the 750 DP. Would it be worth it for a beginner like me to go with the dual setup for a little more power? I do have knowledgable friends and family that could help me if I get stumped, but I don't want to get in too far over my head if they are going to be harder to tune. Although they sure do look cool as well!
Looks cool, sounds cool. Have no fear. Between yourself, family, friends and the engineers at Edelbrock, you'll have no problems tuning the combo. Here's the Owner's Manual for Performer and AVS carbs from Edelbrock so you can get a head start in understanding how these carbs work.....
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...ers_manual.pdf
Make certain that you use the high-rise RPM manifold, not a low-rise model that'll cost a minimum of 50 horsepower from the Sim results shown in this thread.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2013, 05:50 PM
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Looks cool, sounds cool. Have no fear. Between yourself, family, friends and the engineers at Edelbrock, you'll have no problems tuning the combo. Here's the Owner's Manual for Performer and AVS carbs from Edelbrock so you can get a head start in understanding how these carbs work.....
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...ers_manual.pdf
Make certain that you use the high-rise RPM manifold, not a low-rise model that'll cost a minimum of 50 horsepower from the Sim results shown in this thread.


Great! All the dual quad turnkey "kits" I see have the Air-Gap manifold. I'm sorry to run you around, but if you have a chance could you please post the part number of the correct high rise manifold that I would need? All I'm finding is a lo-profile model and a tunnel ram model.

Thank you!
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Old 05-15-2013, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
Does your simulator take an accurate account of lash? What program do you use, finding one that has a reasonable cost and does a good job of solid vs hydraulic cams is a hard thing to do.
I use a CompCams DynoSim 4.2 With Pro Tools. If I were going to buy a new package today, it would be DynoSim 5.0 With Pro Tools and Cam Disc.
Although there is a choice of camshaft type to make with the software, (hydraulic flat tappet, hydraulic roller tappet, solid flat tappet and solid roller tappet), I have no idea what the software is doing, if anything, about the lash. As I explained earlier, I don't normally use anything but 1.5 rockers on a SBC build, because there is just not enough return of power to put up with the downside. So, the software is just a way to get you in the ballpark. Individual tuning procedures will add or detract from those software results. The software assumes 100% tune and perfect atmospheric conditions. (60 degree air at sea level).
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Old 05-15-2013, 06:20 PM
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Great! All the dual quad turnkey "kits" I see have the Air-Gap manifold. I'm sorry to run you around, but if you have a chance could you please post the part number of the correct high rise manifold that I would need? All I'm finding is a lo-profile model and a tunnel ram model.
Thank you!
Yeah, no problem. The following assumes NON-VORTEC, conventional Gen I Chevy heads. There is a different part number for using VORTEC style heads.

Edelbrock dual quad high-rise manifolds for use with conventional Gen I heads......
RPM Air-Gap Dual-Quad manifold (non-EGR) #7525*
RPM Air-Gap Dual-Quad manifold w/ Polished finish (non-EGR) #75251*
RPM Air-Gap Dual-Quad manifold w/ EnduraShine finish (non-EGR) #75254*

Carburetor Recommendations: Edelbrock Thunder Series AVS #1803 and #1804, 500 cfm (see Carbs & Accessories).

Installation Notes: H.E.I. will NOT fit. Recommended intake gasket: Edelbrock #7201.
Manifold height: A-4.57", B-4.92" see A/B Measurements. Port exit dimensions: 1.16" x 1.92". Carb center-to-center distance: 6-7/16".

Use a small diameter distributor cap model of distributor, the large diameter HEI cap will not clear the intake manifold. Here's an example of a locked out distributor, if you wanted to go that way....
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cr...make/chevrolet
Here's the rest of the list.....points, magnetic, hall effect, whatever your choice, as long as it's a small diameter cap that will clear the intake manifold.
http://www.summitracing.com/search/p...-socket?page=3

WARNING:
Coordinate the distributor shaft drive gear material that you use with the camshaft manufacturer's camshaft material. The distributor drive gear must be compatible with the camshaft drive gear. Howards makes such a gear.

If you decide to use the locked out distributor, you will want to install some means of cutting voltage to the coil while you are turning the crank to start the motor. There are electronic devices which will accomplish this, or you can cut into the coil wire and interrupt the voltage with a momentary push-button switch that will kill coil voltage while you are starting the motor. If full advance is available to the motor on cranking, the crank will push back against the starter.

Buy 2 sets of intake gaskets. When you finally torque the heads on for good, install and torque down the intake manifold. Let it sit overnight. Next day, pull the intake manifold and inspect the intake gaskets for being pinched all the way around each and every port. If the port is open to atmosphere on the top, you'll have a vacuum leak and you'll have to re-seal. If the port is open to the crankcase on the bottom side of the port, then that cylinder and any other cylinders that are gapped open on the bottom will be pulling in oily crankcase vapor on the intake stroke. If, on close visual inspection, you can determine that the ports are being pinched shut tightly all the way around each and every port, put the manifold back on with the other set of gaskets that you bought and feel good about the motor sealing up. If any of the ports do not seal up all the way around, then there is some machine work in your future. You can determine where to cut and how much to cut by mapping the pinched intake gasket. Measure the thicknesses with a dial caliper and write them down right away, before the gasket can relax.

Last edited by techinspector1; 05-15-2013 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 05-15-2013, 06:42 PM
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Yeah, no problem. The following assumes NON-VORTEC, conventional Gen I Chevy heads. There is a different part number for using VORTEC style heads.

Edelbrock dual quad high-rise manifolds for use with conventional Gen I heads......
RPM Air-Gap Dual-Quad manifold (non-EGR) #7525*
RPM Air-Gap Dual-Quad manifold w/ Polished finish (non-EGR) #75251*
RPM Air-Gap Dual-Quad manifold w/ EnduraShine finish (non-EGR) #75254*

Carburetor Recommendations: Edelbrock Thunder Series AVS #1803 and #1804, 500 cfm (see Carbs & Accessories).

Installation Notes: H.E.I. will NOT fit. Recommended intake gasket: Edelbrock #7201. Manifold height: A-4.57", B-4.92" see A/B Measurements. Port exit dimensions: 1.16" x 1.92". Carb center-to-center distance: 6-7/16".

Use a small diameter distributor cap model of distributor, the large diameter HEI cap will not clear the intake manifold. Here's an example of a locked out distributor, if you wanted to go that way....
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cr...make/chevrolet
Here's the rest of the list.....points, magnetic, hall effect, whatever your choice, as long as it's a small diameter cap that will clear the intake manifold.
http://www.summitracing.com/search/p...-socket?page=3

WARNING:
Coordinate the distributor shaft drive gear material that you use with the camshaft manufacturer's camshaft material. The distributor drive gear must be compatible with the camshaft drive gear. Howards makes such a gear.

If you decide to use the locked out distributor, you will want to install some means of cutting voltage to the coil while you are turning the crank to start the motor. There are electronic devices which will accomplish this, or you can cut into the coil wire and interrupt the voltage with a momentary push-button switch that will kill coil voltage while you are starting the motor. If full advance is available to the motor on cranking, the crank will push back against the starter.


Great, thank you very much! I think I got confused and thought I should be looking for something other than the Air-Gap manifold. In that case, I can just go with one of the kits that includes the manifold, carbs, linkage etc all in one.
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