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Old 01-30-2006, 11:33 PM
Warrant's Avatar
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Please help young kid, who's still learning, to get his brakes working

Alright, heres my deal, im not entiraly sure what im doing and brakes is a serious matter so I will ask you. Please please try to answer all my questions, their is alot here so please hang in their.

(on the pictures, the numbers in ( ) correspond to questions listed here)(im not sure if this will work or make sence but here is goes...)

I removed my old drums on the front, installed my bracket, rotors, and calipers:

1. Is their a wrong way to install the flex line and is their a left and right flex lines?(see pics 1 and 2...does that look right?, its not binding on anything or kinking or getting coaght on anything?)

2. In pic 4 the banjo bolt is in with two copper crush washers...are those installed right? one on each side of the line between top of bolt and caliper and how much should I torque the banjo bolt down?.

3. Do I need to bleed MC and the rear drums? or just the front? (in the beginning when stock flex line was removed no fluid came out and it was not drained)

4. Could someone please take the time and tell me the correct way to bleed my system? (I have google it and searched but cant seem to find a straight answer)

5. See pic 1 for this question

6. In Pic 2, the line is hitting(rubbing) on the frame, will this couse any problems? like wearing down the line to were it will leak?

8. In pic 3, the pad has a small clip that is inserted into the piston (I beleive to hold in place) while installing the pad, that clip came undone, im not sure if it broke or if it just poped off. I pressed it back on and tapped around it with a hammer, it is snug on their but can still be pulled off without much force. Whats up with it, could it cost me my life, should I make a trip to auto store and ask how it should be?

9. Is their any procedures or anthing else im missing?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Guys for the answers to the Q's above.

now i need some advice on...

THe MC in the new pic.... can anyone tell me about it? Wheres RPV valve? How do I remove it?

I have several types of brake fluid availible...... DOT3 and 4.... synthetic.....regular.....high performence....heavy duty....ABS. Would ABS work? mixing fluids ok? Snythetic with regular? (the bottles I have say it compatible with conventional fluids) If I cant mix, how do I tell what was in my MC before? Thanks Guys. Also, if it is important...what kind of boiling point should I look for?

************************************************** ******
------------------------------------------------------------------------
************************************************** ******

Ok lol now I need this answered:

If I use the my current MC...how much will the Residual valve couse the discs to drag? After awhile wouldnt the pads wear down to where the pressure makes no difference? And I was thinking about it, the single piston calipers requier more fluid...wouldnt that reduce the 10 psi pressure? or does the valve keep desienged to keep the pressure to 10psi no matter what?


Thank you so much taking the time to look over all that Ive wrote, its alot! Thanks!
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Last edited by Warrant; 02-03-2006 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 01-30-2006, 11:56 PM
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A few things here.
1. We need to know what vehicle you are working on.
2. There are several ways to bleed brakes that are correct and a couple that are not.
Generally if you have a companion, you have them pump the brakes an hold the Pedel down when the get a bit of pedel pressure. Then you open the bleeder screw that is the farthest (sp?) from the mastercylinder. Have them hold the pedel down untill you close the bleeder screw and then repeat the process. after you get a steady flow of fluid at that wheel go the next and do the process again. The whole process may have to be repeated around all 4 wheels a couple of times to get all the air out.
A second method involves using a pressure bleeder attatched to the master cylinder. Same basic process except no one to pump the pedel.
A third process involves using a vacuum pump such as a MIty-Vac to suck the fluid through the lines from the mastercylinder to the caliper or wheel cylinder.
One major thing to remember is to never let the master cylinder go dry or the whole process has to start over from scratch.
Yes, You should be able to bleed just the front brakes if the rears were not disturbed.
Remember You will have to have the correct mastercylinder for disk brakes and some systems require a porportioning valve to be installed to balance the system.
The clip in the photo holds the pad in place in the caliper and piston, it should snap into the piston an hold the pad in place.
You may have a bit of a twist in the hose. Try loosening the line fitting a couple of turns and then pop out the clip and see if the hose wants to turn to a spot that gives it less stress. When Installing a hose like that I have found that it is usually best to fasten it to the caliper and then hook it to the bracket and line. Make sure that is the correct hose for the chassis also. Some times they sell a fits-all hose that doesn't fit all.

Last edited by Chopt 48; 01-31-2006 at 01:04 AM.
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Old 01-31-2006, 06:58 AM
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The car is a 1972 Nova, I will be using the stock MC for now as it will be suffecient for what Im doing (the place where I bought the brakes said it would work) it is not power brakes either. Thanks!
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Old 01-31-2006, 10:23 AM
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First off you can not use a drum brake master cylinder with discs. Those big single piston calipers require way more fluid than the drum brake master cylinder will move. You will find that when you first hit the pedal it will go to the floor and will require a second stroke to get any braking. Even then it will be insufficient. A remanufactured one from NAPA online is $18.99. See below. It will be about the same price in your local store or AutoZone ect. Don't risk your car or your life to save a few pennies or to get the car on the road sooner.


Item#: TS 101481

Price: $18.99
tax and shipping not included

Disclaimer: The stated price may vary from the in store price and may change at anytime.

Usually ships in 24 hours.


Attributes:
# of Line Ports:2
Bore Size:1.12500
Finish:Rust-Preventative Finish
Line Thread Size:9/16-18
1/2-20


You will also need to install a proportioning valve. The original GM disc/drum system had one and it slows the application of the front discs to allow the slowing acting rear drums to apply properly. I found that a reman original for my '69 1/2 ton Chevy was over $100. from all sources, but Classic Performance Products have their own new ones for a lot less. The Classic Performance Products part for your Nova is part number PVKS-2 and cost is $75. This includes the valve, bracket and short lines. This is the easiest way to go.

You may have to modify your brake lines to match the outlets in the prop valve also. I installed a new line kit in my whole truck so that was already taken care of.

Attached is a picture of my setup. I still have to put one short line on but I wanted to show you what you need. As for the hoses rubbing the frame you will need to put some kind of shield on that line to protect it If repositioning as suggested by Chopt 48 doesn't hold it away from the frame. Maybe a heavy plastic sleeve of some sort then remember to look at it at every oil change to make sure it's not wearing.

The line fittings are 150 inch lbs. and the banjo bolt torque specs are 22 foot lbs. according to the shop manual.

Good luck and ask again if you need more help.

Tom
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Old 01-31-2006, 03:13 PM
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I contacted the custom bracket supplyer (www.scarebird.com) on the issue of the MC, they said it would be ok to use. Please see this thread I made alittle while ago, as others have done the same thing.

Nova drum Master Cylinder compatibility with front discs...need fast help!

Also, the clip on the pad came off the pad, is it designed to come off? or did I bust it off? (pic 3)

And, I wasnt sure of the area for the copper crush washers, I assume their in the right spot (on the banjo bolt) to seal the line to caliper? (pic 4)

Is their any sealent, lock tight, or other washers I need to install (like on the flexline to main line, or does that just hook right up?)

Thanks so much!
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Old 01-31-2006, 03:37 PM
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No sealent on brake parts period! If you have one copper washer on each side of the banjo fitting you have it on correctly.

You usually take a flat screw driver and pop the clip off the old pad and snap it on the new pad if it isn't broken. I am not sure if you are using a complete new set of rotor,caliper, pads or somthing that was removed from another car. Replacement clips are inexpensive if one is broken. If the tab that you have the square drawn around is good and holds the clip to the pad you are ok to go.

What 39 Deluxe and I were both trying to say is that the drum master cylinder will not allow things to function correctly with disk brakes. There is usually a residual check valve to hold some pressure on a drum system, Used with disk brakes this causes excessive drag between the pads and disks. Using the Napa part number he supplied you should be able to get the correct master cylinder easily by having your local parts house cross reference it.

Last edited by Chopt 48; 01-31-2006 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 01-31-2006, 05:14 PM
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You cannot use the M/C if it has the RPV valve built into it ( for frt drums ), because the 10 PSI residual preassure will cause the discs to drag, if the M/C does not have the RPV and the combination valve does, you need a combination valve without it. A M/C designed for drum brakes should work as long as it does not have the built in RPV, because actully fluid movement only changes with bore size changes, if there the same between the disc/ drum master and the drum/drum master, everything will be the same and it can be used. And you will need a prop valve, they do have somthing to do with self energizing brakes ( any drum brake is self energizing, because when the front shoe presses in to the drum, it is forced down and that forces the rear drum up into the the drum, acting as a mechanicle advantage ) , that's the main purpose but they do not lighten up the front brakes, they lighten up the rear brakes as the weight of the car travles forward, and prevents rear wheel lockup.
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Old 01-31-2006, 10:43 PM
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K, a few more things:

Where the Flexline attaches to the fitting to the main hardline, I do not have a guage that tells me inch lbs with that type of adapter. What I have done is just line it up, made sure it was connecting correctly, tightend it up pretty much as tight as I could get it without stripping or breaking anything. Will this be sufficient?

And what type of Brake Fluid should I use? Remember its a old MC with '90 celebrity calipers... I was told to use DOT 3...and 4 would work too. should I use synthetic or regular? And I was also told not to mix fluids. like regular with synthetic...how do I tell what type was in my system before?

And 1 more thing, im confused with MC's. What is the Residual valve? What is Proportioning valve? What is combination valve? how do I tell if I have these or not and where are they located?

I will post a pic of MC tomorrow moring so you guys can see it...if it will help.

Thanks

Last edited by Warrant; 01-31-2006 at 10:50 PM.
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Old 02-01-2006, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
What is Proportioning valve? What is combination valve? how do I tell if I have these or not and where are they located?




Well, here's my $.02 to help you out. I take it from your posts that the car had 4 wheel drum brakes. Then you upgraded to front wheel disc brakes for improved stopping.

**For the more experienced posters, please correct me if I go wrong. I have only seen one car with 4 wheel drum brakes--my cars all have front disc/rear drum**

I would guess that you presently do not have either valve type. The proportioning valve (if you have one) is located just below the master cylinder or on the frame crossmember under the engine. It's primary purpose is to regulate the brake fluid flow to the rear wheels to prevent the rear wheels from locking up during hard braking.

To understand a combination valve, you need to know a bit about the metering valve. All that the metering valve does (essentially) is it makes sure that the front and rear brakes (front disc and rear drum setups only, I believe) A combination valve is basically a central "juction point" for the brake light warning switch (if you've ever run low on fluid, the light comes on because of this switch), the metering valve, and proportioning valve.

The only ones of these I've seen are (or were) in my '93 and my '97 Chevy trucks. They were mounted right to the side of the M/C. My '84 plow truck didn't have anything but the proportioning valve mounted to the frame crossmember.


I hope I've explained what I learned while working on my plow truck's brakes to help you out. Sorry if it sounds simplistic, but I'm a simple kind of guy.


In a while, Chet.
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Old 02-01-2006, 04:42 PM
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If you had 4wlh drums, you have nither valve, only a preassure differential switch, ( right next to master, 2 lines going in, 2 coming out, an electrical connection in center on top ) all it does is close off a side of the master if that side looses preassure ( broken line ) and turns the brake light on, the PDS could also contain the RPV's but I don't know ( the RPV holds 10 PSI preassure in the line to keep the wheel cylinders from contracting compleatly ), if it does, you need to replace the switch with 1 without, if the master does, then you need a disc/ drum master. the 10 PSI residual preassure will cause the calipers to drag. your gonna need a proportioning valve in rear brake circut, it gets complex why you do, but basicly, all drum brakes are self energizing, the front shoe, forced into the drum and pushes the rear shoe up into the drum acting as a mechanicle advantage, using less hydraulic force to stop the vehicle, so as the weight travles forward, less braking is needed in the rear, so it lightens the preassure, so the rears don't lock, and then there is height sensing proportioning valves used on trucks & vans, which is attached to the frame near suspension and senses suspension load and ajusts the valve raitio ( how much fluid preassure it gives ), to ajust for the weight change on a truck hauling bricks or a van full of people, when it normally would have no bricks, or no people in it.

A metering valve closes the front brake circut until the rear brakes get 75-125 PSI preassure, so they apply first, your car would not have this ither. a combination valve is all the brake system's valves rolled into 1 big valve, which might include a metering valve, it might not.
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Old 02-01-2006, 05:31 PM
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Ok, a simple way to bleed your brakes (will take 2 people).

First, get 2 large container of either DOT3 or DOT4 fluid. You will probably not use both, but it's always good to have some just in case.

Next you will need a mason jar and a clear piece of tubing. the tubing needs to be clear so that you can physically see any air that comes out of the system. You will be attaching the tubing to the bleed screw on the caliper and then putting the other end in the jar. make sure the tubing is long enough to reach the bottom of the jar when you begin bleeding the system. then, you will fill the jar about 1/3 of the way up with fresh brake fluid.
Also, if you get a new MC (and you should) you will need to "bench bleed" it.
After installing the MC on the firewall but BEFORE you attach the brake lines, fill it with fluid and grab a catch pan and place under the MC on the ground (to cut down on the mess you are about to make). Remove the 2 plastic "caps" from the MC where the lines attach. make sure the top is on the MC. Have your buddy very slowly press the pedal while you place 2 of your fingers over the holes. When the pedal is fully depressed, seal off the holes with those fingers as tight as you can. Do this 2 or 3 times then attach the lines and refill the MC.

Now you can start bleeding the lines and calipers/wheel cylinders

Starting the bleeding process at the wheel farthest from the MC ( you will have to do ALL of the wheels). Attach your tubing and place your jar on the ground, have the 2nd person pump the brake pedal about 3-4 times and then hold it about 1/4 of the way down(steady pressure). Crack open the bleeder screw and let the old fluid drain into the jar via the tubing while your buddy slowly depresses the pedal fully. Look for 'bubbles" in the tubing and jar. when fluid stops moving, tighten the bleeder screw and have your buddy release the pressure. Repeat this process until there is no air...only a steady stream of fluid.

Do this process at every wheel.

why a glass jar with brake fluid in it? Just incase your buddy's foot slips off the pedal before you can tighten the bleeder screw. The fluid in the jar will suck back up into the caliper and keep air out. Just a little bit of cheap insurance.

Make sure and keep a close eye on the level of fluid in the MC. Check it every 2-3 cycles of bleeding and refill it when needed.

Hope this helps.
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Old 02-02-2006, 03:42 PM
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K, here's my MC, can anyone tell me about it? Wheres RPV valve? How do I remove it?

I have several types of brake fluid availible...... DOT3 and 4.... and...synthetic.....regular.....high performence....heavy duty....ABS. Would ABS work? mixing fluids ok? Snythetic with regular? (the bottles I have say it compatible with conventional fluids) If I cant mix, how do I tell what was in my MC before? Thanks Guys
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Old 02-02-2006, 05:02 PM
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your gonna deffinetly need a new master cyl, those 2 big things cast in the master that the lines run through, those are the RPV's, no way to remove them. that block right under the master is the preassure differential switch, which fortunatly for you GM has self centering springs so it will center itself, unlike mine on my '67 Ford Falcon which I needed to manually reposition by pulling the prod out and dragging the plunger center with a pin ( just got done with that procedure actully ). if you never added fluid to the master, than it's probably dot 3, maby dot 4 but there compatible with eachother, if you got silicone base ( DOTT 5 ) than you need to get dot 3 or 4, dot 5 is not compatible because it is made ovf diffrent stuff than 3 and 4 ( there polyglycol's where as 5 is a pure silicone ) and do not mix.
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Old 02-03-2006, 03:25 PM
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If I use the my current MC...how much will the Residual valve couse the discs to drag? After awhile wouldnt the pads wear down to where the pressure makes no difference? And I was thinking about it, the single piston calipers requier more fluid...wouldnt that reduce the 10 psi pressure? or does the valve keep desienged to keep the pressure to 10psi no matter what?

Thanks!
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Old 02-03-2006, 03:30 PM
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I would like to know about that plate for your nova you got. Is it flat like in the pictures on there site? and what thickness is it?

I would like to know because i think i might make a plate like that for my self.

Thanks and good luck

John
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