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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 01-01-2010, 12:38 PM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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This is all from what I understand, I am sure that there are plenty of theories that are also proper. I just listened to what the paint gun companies say. There is no greater demand in the typical body/repair shop for clean, high volume air than a paint gun has. I figure that what they say is best.

Cooling the air is one of the key things they talk about, cooling BEFORE it gets to the outlet the gun will be using.

One way is to block the pipe off the wall so it has air movement around it.

[IMG][/IMG]

Here is the flex pipe I used, it was bought at an aircraft surplus supply. Believe it or not it is a braided line from a hydrolic system of a jet liner! A one inch ID braided line!



I used Galvanized pipe being black pipe is for gas and not "liquids". The air is basically a "liquid" being it is full of water. The black pipe is not galvanized and will rust.

Brian

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Old 01-01-2010, 04:42 PM
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Not sure if you mean that the piping in that pic in the link is wrong but actually it should cool quite well and is kind of a compact way to run the necessary length of pipe in a confined space. Certainly if the separator is mounted between the tank and piping it will be almost useless but placing it at the opposite end and running the lines in the manner it is done there it will have the necessary distance, and thus exposure to the pipe walls, for proper cooling. In addition it has a really good system of draining and trapping the water that condenses in the pipes, not exactly a system you might see everyday but it sure looks like a good one for a small shop with limited space to run the piping. The AC condenser is just a suggestion for use on the plastic line that was the subject here or any system that does not have proper cooling due to lack of pipe length or pipe with poor cooling properties. While the diagram you provided is probably the best first choice it is not always practical, as was the case there, and what was used was an acceptable substitute. The reason I linked to it was to use it as an example of what we are trying to accomplish by condensing the vapor and then trapping the liquid water.
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Old 01-01-2010, 05:17 PM
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Glad you saw that . The wiring project is my brother-in-laws, he's an electrician.........that was temporary........ until he gets time to put everything in conduit. That project is about 9 years old now . He was supposed to start in Dec.........It looks like I am going to have to do it.



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Originally Posted by Old Rotor Flap
47chevy, I see what you've done with your air manifolding, but I'm wondering about that wiring hanging off the shelving. It doesn't look like it .... ah whats the word I'm looking for? Oh yeah, it doesn't look like it meets code.
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Old 01-01-2010, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
I think you guys are over thinking this big time. I can't comment on your design Smith being I can't see the whole thing in the photo. But if it looks like the one on the link oldred posted it is wrong. First off and most important, you are WAY too close to the compressor to do any good. The air hasn't cooled, it is still hot and full of condensation. Being the water is still "in the air" it will go right thru your contraption. You need to "trap" water later down the line when the air has cooled and it is separated from it.

If your contraption were to be mounted horizontal, now that would help out as long as the pipe was mounted at a slant at every point. Then it would act as a "radiator" cooling the air WITHOUT restricting it's path.

Guys, go to Sharpe, Devilbis, and any other paint gun manufacture along with any air tool manufacture and you will see a diagram like this one at Sharpe.



The slope can be toward the compressor or away, I see no real consensus in that, some like it toward, some like it away.

I think this particular drawing is a little misleading in that the drains don't need to be at a slope as this drawing depicts. The bottom of the drop where the drain is could be a foot or twenty feet it would make no difference in it's efficiency.

The most important part is you have the main line sloped. At each drop to an outlet you go UP and then down passing the outlet to a drain at the bottom. The water being heavier than air has to go UP and down to the outlet so much of it simply can't make it and then it goes back to the compressor or out the last drain. The water that does get up and over, falls down to the drain at the bottom of the drop bypassing the air outlet!

Think about this, your air line is a race course, do you want your air going thru a tight course set up in the streets before it gets to your gun or tool to do it's job, or do you want on the Indy oval?

Brian
Thats NOT my set up. I asked a question about trapping moisture by only using air lines and oldred posted a link to the picture as an example only. Not as a solution.
So far all I have done is run my air lines around the shop for convenience only.
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Old 01-01-2010, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
Not sure if you mean that the piping in that pic in the link is wrong but actually it should cool quite well and is kind of a compact way to run the necessary length of pipe in a confined space. Certainly if the separator is mounted between the tank and piping it will be almost useless but placing it at the opposite end and running the lines in the manner it is done there it will have the necessary distance, and thus exposure to the pipe walls, for proper cooling. In addition it has a really good system of draining and trapping the water that condenses in the pipes, not exactly a system you might see everyday but it sure looks like a good one for a small shop with limited space to run the piping. The AC condenser is just a suggestion for use on the plastic line that was the subject here or any system that does not have proper cooling due to lack of pipe length or pipe with poor cooling properties. While the diagram you provided is probably the best first choice it is not always practical, as was the case there, and what was used was an acceptable substitute. The reason I linked to it was to use it as an example of what we are trying to accomplish by condensing the vapor and then trapping the liquid water.
The pipe is WAY too small in that photo and the air has to go thru the water trapped at the bottom where the trap is!

I have heard of this before for about using it in a "confined place". What exactly is a "confined place"? If you are going to run it in a phone booth I guess that is what you would need to do. But something like a two car (or even a one car) garage is plenty big enough for the layout I posted. I have a version of it in a two car garage with the water trap and outlet is 35' from the compressor. There is only one outlet in the system. The compressor is in the rear corner the piping runs along the wall over the car door and the outlet is at the front on the other side.

I mean, in a one car garage you could run the pipe all the way around the garage before the first outlet. There is no reason for fancy footwork.

Brian

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Old 01-01-2010, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smithkustoms
Thats NOT my set up. I asked a question about trapping moisture by only using air lines and oldred posted a link to the picture as an example only. Not as a solution.
So far all I have done is run my air lines around the shop for convenience only.
Sorry, I thought it was yours. A proper setup can really save you from moiture in the lines and poor CFM so set it up right when you do.

Brian
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 01-01-2010, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
Sorry, I thought it was yours. A proper setup can really save you from moiture in the lines and poor CFM so set it up right when you do.

Brian
Thats the plan. I have approx 100' of air line left over and Im thinking I will use it to build air lines for painting. Rather then just air lines around the shop. Im going to get my garage more painter friendly now that I have a nice new air compressor.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 01-02-2010, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
The pipe is WAY too small in that photo and the air has to go thru the water trapped at the bottom where the trap is! Brian


Are you talking about the photo at the bottom of this page?

Water Separaters


That's 3/4" Copper line which is plenty big enough for a one user set up and there is a drop at each bend so I fail to see how the air has to go through the water where it is trapped. This was all covered back when he was building the thing and the short drops in that pic were discussed too, I suppose if they were left that short then they would have to be drained often but the basic design he came up with is a really good one. Having the traps at the bottoms of a long vertical pipe is an excellent way to trap water and the principle works the same way as the oil oil bath car air filters did to trap dirt from moving air. As the column of air flows downward the droplets of water suspended in it will also be moving at the same speed, as the air reaches the bottom it will have to make an abrupt turn and flow back in the other direction but the heavier water will resist this turn due to inertia and will tend to collect at the bottom where it will drain into the traps where it can remain undisturbed by the air flow until it is drained. Water condensed on the pipe walls will also tend to drain downward but even when exposed to the air flow it will resist flowing back upward in the other pipe, certainly all of it will flow into the traps when air movement is slowed or stopped. While I have never intentionally used multiple loops just to gain pipe length (where we installed pipe room was certainly our least concern!) I always tried to take advantage of a high ceiling to have a long vertical drop to the bottom of the last trap with the take-off tee'd in well above the bottom. Again, in an arrangement like that the air can easily make that abrupt turn into the tee while the heavier water will be forced by inertia to pass up the tee and not make the turn winding up in the collection drop. In the system in the photo the Copper pipe has multiple loops for length with several of these vertical drops providing the necessary cooling with several places to catch the condensation before it makes it to the separator. Maybe the fella who built it will chime in soon but there was a lot of discussion when he was building it and when he put it into operation it worked exactly as he had planned with almost all of the water collecting in the traps with very little making it to the separator.



The question of how to run lines in a small space comes up here sometimes and this is usually a good solution, in this case however it was used simply as an explanation of how the water is removed by cooling since I have no idea how much room he has. The diagram you show is certainly a very effective one and simple to install however there is no one size to fit all shops, or sometimes basements, and as the old saw goes there is "more than one way to skin a cat".



BTW, that other pic with a similar design uses 1" pipe and has longer traps which IIRC the system in the first pic now has too.

Last edited by oldred; 01-02-2010 at 10:38 AM.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 01-02-2010, 11:47 AM
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In a shop I worked at, the only compressor was an old (bigger) Sears home type unit that suffered BADLY from moisture in the whole system, despite constant draining. I rigged up an old automotive A/C condenser between the pump head and the tank, and hung it behind the flywheel for the pump, which had a "fan" built into it for air cooling the pump. A little deburring and polishing of the spokes/fan blades and it actually moved some air. Apparently it made a pretty sizable difference, because draining the tank any time after that produced much more condensate, the water trap always had moisture in it where it never did before, and we got far less moisture in the air tools. A bigger "home A/C" size condenser with a dedicated electric fan would probably work much better.
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Old 01-02-2010, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
Are you talking about the photo at the bottom of this page?

Water Separaters


That's 3/4" Copper line which is plenty big enough for a one user set up and there is a drop at each bend so I fail to see how the air has to go through the water where it is trapped. This was all covered back when he was building the thing and the short drops in that pic were discussed too, I suppose if they were left that short then they would have to be drained often but the basic design he came up with is a really good one. Having the traps at the bottoms of a long vertical pipe is an excellent way to trap water and the principle works the same way as the oil oil bath car air filters did to trap dirt from moving air. As the column of air flows downward the droplets of water suspended in it will also be moving at the same speed, as the air reaches the bottom it will have to make an abrupt turn and flow back in the other direction but the heavier water will resist this turn due to inertia and will tend to collect at the bottom where it will drain into the traps where it can remain undisturbed by the air flow until it is drained. Water condensed on the pipe walls will also tend to drain downward but even when exposed to the air flow it will resist flowing back upward in the other pipe, certainly all of it will flow into the traps when air movement is slowed or stopped. While I have never intentionally used multiple loops just to gain pipe length (where we installed pipe room was certainly our least concern!) I always tried to take advantage of a high ceiling to have a long vertical drop to the bottom of the last trap with the take-off tee'd in well above the bottom. Again, in an arrangement like that the air can easily make that abrupt turn into the tee while the heavier water will be forced by inertia to pass up the tee and not make the turn winding up in the collection drop. In the system in the photo the Copper pipe has multiple loops for length with several of these vertical drops providing the necessary cooling with several places to catch the condensation before it makes it to the separator. Maybe the fella who built it will chime in soon but there was a lot of discussion when he was building it and when he put it into operation it worked exactly as he had planned with almost all of the water collecting in the traps with very little making it to the separator.



The question of how to run lines in a small space comes up here sometimes and this is usually a good solution, in this case however it was used simply as an explanation of how the water is removed by cooling since I have no idea how much room he has. The diagram you show is certainly a very effective one and simple to install however there is no one size to fit all shops, or sometimes basements, and as the old saw goes there is "more than one way to skin a cat".



BTW, that other pic with a similar design uses 1" pipe and has longer traps which IIRC the system in the first pic now has too.
I'm sorry, I made my comments without thinking enough about it. It does make sense as you describe it, AS LONG AS that pipe is large enough. It looks like 1/2" to me though. But if it's 3/4" that is a lot better but 1" would be even better.

I have to wonder about the CFM going thru all that stuff though. That is my main concern as what I deal with has been paint guns. When I see a bunch of "home brew" stuff I usually see poor CFM. Your basic set up like the one I posted from Sharpe is usually the best way to go for painting with an HVLP gun where a high volume of air is so important (the H and V in HVLP).

Brian
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Old 01-02-2010, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
Your basic set up like the one I posted from Sharpe is usually the best way to go Brian

No question at all about that! The best that can be expected would be to come close to the efficiency of the Sharpe set-up and I doubt the one we have been discussing could surpass it, that was never the intention nor was it meant that it was better than the conventional set-up, however it solved a space problem in that case and did so in a rather neat way.


I have seen some very effective (even if a bit odd) ways of removing moisture, everything from the AC evaporator to running the air lines though a barrel of water.
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Old 01-03-2010, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
I think you guys are over thinking this big time. I can't comment on your design Smith being I can't see the whole thing in the photo. But if it looks like the one on the link oldred posted it is wrong. First off and most important, you are WAY too close to the compressor to do any good. The air hasn't cooled, it is still hot and full of condensation. Being the water is still "in the air" it will go right thru your contraption. You need to "trap" water later down the line when the air has cooled and it is separated from it.

If your contraption were to be mounted horizontal, now that would help out as long as the pipe was mounted at a slant at every point. Then it would act as a "radiator" cooling the air WITHOUT restricting it's path.

Guys, go to Sharpe, Devilbis, and any other paint gun manufacture along with any air tool manufacture and you will see a diagram like this one at Sharpe.



The slope can be toward the compressor or away, I see no real consensus in that, some like it toward, some like it away.

I think this particular drawing is a little misleading in that the drains don't need to be at a slope as this drawing depicts. The bottom of the drop where the drain is could be a foot or twenty feet it would make no difference in it's efficiency.

The most important part is you have the main line sloped. At each drop to an outlet you go UP and then down passing the outlet to a drain at the bottom. The water being heavier than air has to go UP and down to the outlet so much of it simply can't make it and then it goes back to the compressor or out the last drain. The water that does get up and over, falls down to the drain at the bottom of the drop bypassing the air outlet!

Think about this, your air line is a race course, do you want your air going thru a tight course set up in the streets before it gets to your gun or tool to do it's job, or do you want on the Indy oval?

Brian

Thanks for the info !
here is a link to a full size page with readable details if anyone is interested:
http://www.sharpe1.com/sharpe/sharpe...df?OpenElement
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Old 01-03-2010, 03:50 PM
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According to the sharpe diagram it says you need a flexible hose between the compressor and pipe system. Where in the world do you buy a 1"+ flexible leader hose able to handle 150psi and the heat of the compressor?
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Old 01-03-2010, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smithkustoms
According to the sharpe diagram it says you need a flexible hose between the compressor and pipe system. Where in the world do you buy a 1"+ flexible leader hose able to handle 150psi and the heat of the compressor?
Pretty much any hydraulic shop can whip one out for ya in just a few minutes,
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Old 01-03-2010, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smithkustoms
According to the sharpe diagram it says you need a flexible hose between the compressor and pipe system. Where in the world do you buy a 1"+ flexible leader hose able to handle 150psi and the heat of the compressor?
Go back and read my post and see photo.

Brian
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