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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2012, 09:13 AM
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350 CI Pontiac block. + .060" OS
Probe SRS custom forged pistons, 3.935" bore
CAT H-beam steel rods, 6.800" C-C
New stroker crankshaft, 4.00" stroke, 2.200" BB Chevy rod journals, 3.00" main journals
1967 - 1970 small valve heads (no need for large valves due to bore size)
Edelbrock intake for 750 CFM Q-jet.
Total displacement: 389 CI

Option #2:
Buy a used 455 Pontiac engine. Do a ring and valve job. Tell everyone it is a 350 CI engine....

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Last edited by MouseFink; 11-05-2012 at 09:20 AM.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2012, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MouseFink View Post
350 CI Pontiac block. + .060" OS
Probe SRS custom forged pistons, 3.935" bore
CAT H-beam steel rods, 6.800" C-C
New stroker crankshaft, 4.00" stroke, 2.200" BB Chevy rod journals, 3.00" main journals
1967 - 1970 small valve heads (no need for large valves due to bore size)
Edelbrock intake for 750 CFM Q-jet.
Total displacement: 389 CI

Option #2:
Buy a used 455 Pontiac engine. Do a ring and valve job. Tell everyone it is a 350 CI engine....
Point taken, and I DO AGREE WITH YOU...The fellow said he had a 350 Pontiac and could it be made to make power and he wanted to build it himself. The question was not "I have a 350 Pontiac but would a 455 be a better choice". It's the old adage, "there is no replacement for displacement so, Again, I AGREE WITH YOU. I'm only trying to answer the questions as they are presented. Early in this post I asked if he wanted to spend the money and that building a 350 Pontiac would be expensive. He has come back several times with a resounding YES. If a Pontiac 350 is what he wants that is his choice and all these cubic inch scenarios have been asked and suggestions made.

So in conclusion I AGREE WITH YOU, I don't try and put down any manufacturers engine, they can all be made to perform if enough money is put into them, some choices are better than others and there are many choices not as apt to accept performance increases as a Pontiac 350, that's why I say I agree with you.
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:53 AM
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Regardless of the make of the engine:

The only substitute for CUBIC INCHES is RECTANGULAR MONEY.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2012, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MouseFink View Post
Regardless of the make of the engine:

The only substitute for CUBIC INCHES is RECTANGULAR MONEY.
There ya go my friend, same book, same page.

Ray
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:37 AM
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My brother built a 350 Poncho I forgot if it has 4X or 6X heads and I tell you his Firebird could get it in fact compare to my 70 GTO I had im sure it has more power now the heads were worked on and so on.

Thinking his Firebird has a pos with 373 gears and it's standard my Goat had 323 gears with no posi and all stock.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2012, 11:51 AM
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Agreed with what you posted, especially the Butler Performance products (they even have packages now for the 326 and 350, stroker kits and all).

Chevy products are cheaper and more of them out there, that's why so many people go Chevy. I've seen many threads about horsepower per cubic inch, if we did a dollar invested per cubic versus horsepower thread, Chevy would win hands down. Performance parts supply places make more "make your Chevy go fast kits" than any other manufacturer. The question never was is this the best choice to make the most power for the least money, the question was can I make my 350 Pontiac produce respectable horsepower and I want to build it myself. All the questions and suggestions where made in early posts and the fellow still wants to go 350 Pontiac. Well, my hats off to him and will try to give him the most sound advice to the best of my ability and would welcome all kinds of positive, well thought out, experienced advice from the users of this forum. I love Pontiacs, Chevy, Olds, Buick, Ford, Mopar...special place in my heart for AMC...they can all be made to go faster than when they rolled off the assembly line and if it wasn't for people daring and attempting new and improved parts and methods we wouldn't have anything to discuss.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2012, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
OK, if your committed to building a Pontiac 350, buy it for the fifty bucks...Take it home...Take it apart and don't throw everything into a box and hope your going to remember it...you won't by the time it comes to putting it all back together. Mark each piston as to which cylinder it came out of the block, mark each rod and cap as to how they came off. Label everything that doesn't go to the machine shop Take your block, heads, crank, pistons and Rods to your machine shop...Get the block checked for cracks (magnaflexing), check to see if the engine needs to be bored...Chances are it does, have them check the crank to see if it needs to be ground. Get a price for all the machining including cam bearing installation as well as new freeze plugs. I left the heads out of this because I don't know what kind you have, let me know about your heads and we can discuss it.

First steps, we can try and walk you through it and I think one step at a time is probably the best way. That way you don't spend a bunch of money on parts and pieces only to find that your block is cracked.
x2
I built a 350 poncho.. on my way to a 400.. it was a down and dirty rebuild...
honed the cyl./new wear parts/polished the cast rods../and a little better cam.. and bolted it in place of the 301 that was under the turbo..
that wrong rod %, small bore, elcrapo heads poncho. ran mighty well even with the HUGE turbo lag.. ran very low 13's with it.. not bad in a 3800lb t/a and a turbo and carb engine set up for 301cid..
the 400 was faster.. but that was after tons of work on the turbo end of things..
good luck..
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2012, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Furgal View Post
x2
I built a 350 poncho.. on my way to a 400.. it was a down and dirty rebuild...
honed the cyl./new wear parts/polished the cast rods../and a little better cam.. and bolted it in place of the 301 that was under the turbo..
that wrong rod %, small bore, elcrapo heads poncho. ran mighty well even with the HUGE turbo lag.. ran very low 13's with it.. not bad in a 3800lb t/a and a turbo and carb engine set up for 301cid..
the 400 was faster.. but that was after tons of work on the turbo end of things..
good luck..
Thanks, It's good to hear reinforcing comments on Pontiacs. Sometimes people like to take a road less traveled and in turn make believers out of avid non supporters.

Thanks again.
Ray
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2012, 04:03 PM
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YeaI'm going to give the Pontiac 350 a go at it just to say I built one. hell for $50 bucks I can at least pull it apart. The guy that built my 455 say's he's willing to coach me.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2012, 04:12 PM
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Thanks for all the comments guys. I love this forum. My 455 is a monster. My dad had a 72 GP with a 400 in it and when I took him for a ride he was asking for the seat belts! lol... I've had guys out here tell me I cant build the Pontiac 350...well I'm going to try. Going to post pics...may be a few year process lol
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:25 PM
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Excellent and I'm sure he can give you pointers as well...just run everything by people that have done it before and you'll be OK...don't take any one person's opinion as gospel...get confirmation on any opinions.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 11-06-2012, 08:49 AM
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After reading through these remarks, I gotta say a couple things.

First, the bore/stroke ratio is of very little importance in building a performance engine today. We used to think it was paramount... it's not. Rod/stroke ratio is far more important for longervity, and as long as the bore is big enough for the intake valve to "work", it WILL make power. The Quad-4 is a good example. The 2.3 version is a larger bore/shorter stroke. The 2.4 is the opposite. The 2.4 will run away and HIDE from the 2.3 (to a much greater "degree" than the slight increase in displacement).

Pontiac installed "48" cylinder heads on MANY '69 350HO engines. Those are 2.11/177 valves. They also used "17" and "47", both "small valve". IMO, these "work" a little better. The shrouding issue is not without some truth.

Making HP and making torque sometimes go "hand in hand". Not always. A 350 Chevy has no trouble at all making 500 HP. A 350 Pontiac (standard bore, it's really 354 CID) will have trouble getting there because the heads don't "work" as well. Can it be "done"? Of course. By the same token, a 350 Chevy has trouble making 450 lb. ft. This is due to the large bore and relatively short stroke. The heads aren't quite as "good" in the low-flow ranges either. The longer stroke and "long" rod in the Pontiac allow it to easily make that kind of torque, and more, usually at lower revs. Camming has a great impact on this, as well.

FWIW

Jim
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 11-06-2012, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. P-Body View Post
After reading through these remarks, I gotta say a couple things.

First, the bore/stroke ratio is of very little importance in building a performance engine today. We used to think it was paramount... it's not. Rod/stroke ratio is far more important for longervity, and as long as the bore is big enough for the intake valve to "work", it WILL make power. The Quad-4 is a good example. The 2.3 version is a larger bore/shorter stroke. The 2.4 is the opposite. The 2.4 will run away and HIDE from the 2.3 (to a much greater "degree" than the slight increase in displacement).

Pontiac installed "48" cylinder heads on MANY '69 350HO engines. Those are 2.11/177 valves. They also used "17" and "47", both "small valve". IMO, these "work" a little better. The shrouding issue is not without some truth.

Making HP and making torque sometimes go "hand in hand". Not always. A 350 Chevy has no trouble at all making 500 HP. A 350 Pontiac (standard bore, it's really 354 CID) will have trouble getting there because the heads don't "work" as well. Can it be "done"? Of course. By the same token, a 350 Chevy has trouble making 450 lb. ft. This is due to the large bore and relatively short stroke. The heads aren't quite as "good" in the low-flow ranges either. The longer stroke and "long" rod in the Pontiac allow it to easily make that kind of torque, and more, usually at lower revs. Camming has a great impact on this, as well.

FWIW

Jim
So true Jim and you said it very eloquently. So many people focus on horsepower when torque is another element very often ignored. Excellent post.

Ray
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:40 PM
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LS engines have smaller bore/stroke ratios than LTs and make more power.

HPP is a magazine, written for entertainment. The very best Pontiac builders are seldom even mentioned in that magazine. Butler Performance gets the most "ink" and for good reason. But I'll bet it wasn't a Butler engine you're talking about...

We often hear "Can't do that with a Pontiac..." I heard once, they can't rev. Well, like every other engine design, if you use good parts, "enough" cylinder head and camshaft, the Pontiac will "rev" with the best of them (of which it may very well be). We shifted Dirty Bird at 9,200 RPM, never had a bearing issue. The only limits are the same as any other. The laws of physics...

PAX

Jim
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:00 AM
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Unlike 350 Chevrolet engines, most give up on the 350 Pontiac engines and go to the 455, if a good one can still be found. A 455 engine's forte is torque and does not have to be spun into the stratosphere to win races.

A late friend of mine had a '66 GTO with a 455 engine, stock H-O camshaft, headers, Q-jet, and 3.36:1 "freeway-flyer" rear gear. With some good bite, his GTO was turning in the mid-13's consistently with closed exhaust.
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