[LATECH]

They sound like junk to me.
You will spend 9-1200 bucks making them worth a crap, then you will need to change your pistons to run them, dont waste yor time and money.
look around at edelbrock or kaufmann racing or somehwre for aluminum heads with a close to correct chamber size and shape.
Or get some later model ones in decent shape and do some port work. your still going to spend a grand anyhow, 2k for edelbrock heads isnt so crazy.
Being that your block probably isnt zero decked, its probably best to just get some 73-79 heads as was suggested and use them.

[cobalt327]

Originally Posted by 77pontolds

Hello again. I didn't ask him how much he wanted for the heads, but I could probably buy them for4 not much. I dont think I can use them because they won't accept my A.C. .They are rusty from sitting outside in the shed, but WOW! they have big valves (they almost touch) screw-in studs, guide plates, and round ports (?). The other ones have larger c.c., and the right mounts, but are probably the same as I have on the '71 block.

When you hear production Pontiac heads called 'round port' or 'D-port', it's the exhaust port that is being referred to. The intake ports are all shaped pretty much similar.

You might want to look at them a little closer if the exhaust ports are really round. Double check the casting number. A photo would help. Be sure the ports weren't modified by grinding.

The images below shows Ram Air (RA) V top (you will prolly never see a set of these in the wild); RA IV (round port) center (one of the best production Pontiac heads); and the D-port, bottom (by far the most common design).

EXHAUST PORTS



INTAKE PORTS

[hcompton]

Originally Posted by LATECH

They sound like junk to me.
You will spend 9-1200 bucks making them worth a crap, then you will need to change your pistons to run them, dont waste yor time and money.
look around at edelbrock or kaufmann racing or somehwre for aluminum heads with a close to correct chamber size and shape.
Or get some later model ones in decent shape and do some port work. your still going to spend a grand anyhow, 2k for edelbrock heads isnt so crazy.
Being that your block probably isnt zero decked, its probably best to just get some 73-79 heads as was suggested and use them.

Yep edlebrocks are the way to go. They are based off the ram air IV casting. But flow alot better. Also come in any cc you need to get right cr. And they have the big valves.

Rusty heads are ok most poncho guys would have snatched the round ports up. But you did the right thing leaving them set. Only good for ebay auction. But cost is crazy to have shop do everything.

Olds motor is total crap. But you have a basicly stock 400 that runs and drives. Dont even touch it stab it in and drive. Dont worry about the power it will be a crap load more than the olds motor.

If you are going to build a fast firebird use a chevy motor. It will be alot cheaper and a lot faster dollar for dollar. I love ponchos but i would never build another one Butler performace makes very fast engine for very little money. Its next to impossible to build something for less money that is faster than what butler can build for you.

[77pontolds]

I think you boys are right. I'll put the 71 Pontiac in and enjoy it. I'm a little? too old to play around inside engines. The last one, a 350 4-bolt chevy cosy me $3600 by the time I got done, and put it in my 66 Corvette. I've got a 400 sbc in the shed that I might have to use some day, but I hope not. Thanks, Uncle Rich

[77pontolds]

I'm finally putting the 400 into my Firebird. Things are going pretty well, except for aligning the motor mounts, but that will happen tomorrow. Somewhere down the road, I might want to put headers on that block, and the stock manifolds don't use the end holes. I'm not going to take them off to see if the heads are tapped. No hurry, but any ideas? They are 99 heads. Thanks, Uncle Rich

[77pontolds]

We still can't get the engine to bolt into the body. I removed a 403 Olds, and got new rubber mounts to fit a Pontiac 400. I got the engine brackets from a 400 Pontiac engine that was in a 78 Bonneville. We are trying to install the 400 in a 1977 Firebird formula. We have tried various bolt paterns on the crossmember, to no avail.. The 400 is a 1971 block. We've been at this for four days now, and have pulled the engine at least 4 times. I have never had this much trouble swapping engines before, but I'm determined to make it work!! HELP Please. Thanks, Uncle Rich

[cobalt327]

Originally Posted by 77pontolds

We still can't get the engine to bolt into the body. I removed a 403 Olds, and got new rubber mounts to fit a Pontiac 400. I got the engine brackets from a 400 Pontiac engine that was in a 78 Bonneville. We are trying to install the 400 in a 1977 Firebird formula. We have tried various bolt paterns on the crossmember, to no avail.. The 400 is a 1971 block. We've been at this for four days now, and have pulled the engine at least 4 times. I have never had this much trouble swapping engines before, but I'm determined to make it work!! HELP Please. Thanks, Uncle Rich

I had a Pontiac 455 in a '81 Camaro. I used all stock parts from the B-body wagon the engine came from and it fit. I don't recall details on the holes, though. IIRC I welded the motor mounts to the crossmember and left it like that.

What you can do is mount the rubber mounts to the engine brackets using the through bolts an nuts but not tightening them. Then set the engine down onto the crossmember and see if anything lines up. If nothing does, you can mark and drill new holes. I have spot welded them directly to the crossmember, then remove the through bolts, pull the engine back out for drilling/bolting (did this when I put a 455 into a 4X4 Chevy Blazer).

If you do this you have to be sure the engine is square and not sitting too high or low, etc. due to any differences in the B-car brackets vs. the F-car brackets.

[77pontolds]

Thanks for the advice. I was going to do that as a last resort. I'll go to town today to buy new mounts, as the ones we have been using are pretty beat up by now. Thanks again for the quick reply. Uncle Rich

[77pontolds]

We finally got the 400 in!!! The problem was the "B" brackets don't fit an "F" car. Once I located the right ones and installed them, it all came together. That Pontiac engine leaves more room in areas where I need it, like behind the distributor. It looks really at home in there. As soon as I get done, I'll try to post some pics. Thanks again for the help. Uncle Rich

[cadillacdave1]

If you have the $$ try the edelbrock performer cylinder heads rather than rebuilding the old pontiac heads. You will get more power and reliability. The stock pontiac heads dont flow that well by todays standard. You can get torque from the old heads but not much horsepower. You would be limited to probably 375 horsepower with the old heads. Remember there was not much aftermarket support for pontiac engines like there is with chevy which has cheaper alternatives. You can build a 400+ hp sbc for 1/2 the price of a pontiac with less hp. Remember new and cheap sbc heads outflow old pontiac heads by a lot. Good luck with the build

[cobalt327]

Originally Posted by 77pontolds

We finally got the 400 in!!! The problem was the "B" brackets don't fit an "F" car. Once I located the right ones and installed them, it all came together. That Pontiac engine leaves more room in areas where I need it, like behind the distributor. It looks really at home in there. As soon as I get done, I'll try to post some pics. Thanks again for the help. Uncle Rich

I hope you enjoy the 400 half as much as I did my 455. I talk about that combo ('81 Camaro/455/6X heads) too much- but it was the tamest, easiest to drive anywhere, everyday, regular gas, 3.31 rear gear, 650 DP, all steel, full interior, 12 second vehicle you'd ever want to see.

I mean, how many cars w/those specs can stage in Drive, mat the gas from an idle and let the tranny shift out on its own (no governor work) and still run 12's on street tires? With a 10-bolt 3.08 run the same way (in Drive) it went 13 seconds flat in the quarter. Oh, and it had a 4777 Holley on a Performer intake (not the RPM, it hadn't come out yet). It was a ball.

[77pontolds]

I haven't had a chance to lean into it yet because of the snow, but I think it will be pretty impressive. It has 3.73 rear end gears, a 200-4R auto, and a 625 Carter AFB. I'm going to try out a 750 Demon to see if it makes any difference, since it would be a loaner to check out. More later, Next it goes to the body/paint shop for a freshen-up, and to get rid of the hail damage. Thanks, Uncle Rich

[Mr. P-Body]

Forget the brand-X carbs. Use a nice Q-Jet from '74-'80 or a good Holley. 750 CFM MINIMUM if you want that Pontiac to get beyond 5,000 RPM.

The "torque monster" Cobalt327 describes is a common "old school" Pontiac build. I had one like it in '85, in a '73 T/A. 12.50s w/3.73 gears, stock converter...

Who ever it was in this discussion that told him to "just use a Chevy motor" needs a "wake up call". And it isn't a "new" thing, either. GTO did NOT earn a reputation for getting BEAT... (:- When properly built, the Pontiac is among the very BEST street/strip engines "out there". Making over 600 HP UNDER 6,000 RPM is one of the reasons...

Jim

[hcompton]

Originally Posted by 77pontolds

I haven't had a chance to lean into it yet because of the snow, but I think it will be pretty impressive. It has 3.73 rear end gears, a 200-4R auto, and a 625 Carter AFB. I'm going to try out a 750 Demon to see if it makes any difference, since it would be a loaner to check out. More later, Next it goes to the body/paint shop for a freshen-up, and to get rid of the hail damage. Thanks, Uncle Rich

I used a set of headmen 3 tube headers for my stock engine and it was way more power than stock manifolds and a lot cheaper than four tubes. also its the most power for the buck with headers. cheap four tubes make less and expensive ones are just that expensive.

3 Tubes use the center pipe is larger and covers both center ports. Sounds like its going to be junk but works perfect for near stock builds. Or even ones with a few updates. It gives long tube power for cheap header prices. Headman also makes them to fit most cars. I did have to smack a dent in mine to make it fit but that was no big deal since it ran way better than the manifolds. They did rust up really fast. But for the price paint is not an issue.

Part number for headmans is 28140 they have them to fit most ponchos.

[cobalt327]

Better than nothing I suppose, but not a 4-tube.