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Pontiac 400 build.

34K views 117 replies 12 participants last post by  beertracker 
#1 ·
Hey everyone. I hate to keep coming on here and bustin your balls but here we go again.

I am picking up a '74 pontiac 400 with 6x-4 heads that I want to drop into a '81 T/A and stick a TH350 with 3:73 gears in the back. This is my summer car only. me being 16 keeps my budget pretty low. But yea, I plan on being at the track every chance I get but I also need to get to school and back everyday ( Its just over 1 mile so theres no real worries.) and I also need to be able to live on the highway to get to the track. My power goal is 450hp but I have seen that once you get to 450hp is very short step up to 500 so yea... This is where I as plaing on going with this build.

I was thiking:

. .30 flat tops
. agressive cam
. headers
. stronger valve springs
. 1:65 rockers
. high volume oil pump
. 6x-4 heads cleaned up
. 428 Intake (came with it)
. 800 cfm holley
. H.E.I
. cut outs
. electric fuel pump
. electric fans
. H/O water pump

well thats my plan everyone, tell me what you think. I am open to what everone has to say.

Thanks in advance! - Adam
 
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#52 ·
don' t feel bad I am laid up for a while as I tore a muscle in my rotator cuff and on some heavy pain meds , so I might be a little goofy on my posting( forgetting words or lettrs ,

on the rods with the caps on the sides at the parting line you might see a little hole ( about a MM or 2 ) this is a squirter that used to help oil the pin ( some say to cool the piston ) its very ovious and sticks out like a sore thumb , as for the casting #'s the 260 and the 40 series of numbers if all th rods are 260s thats a casting group the 40 series numbers is what I needed and will look for .

as for baking vs tanking , hot tanking is great, if you can find someone with a old dip tank ( they are going away due to chemical costs ,hazards and cost of removing the spent caustic ) they are non green to some, My shop used a Caustic tank till a few years ago and I didn't notice the change over till all my blocks and head started coming bak perfectly without paintand shiney , the baking process they put it into a high temp oven and cook the block till all the sludge and varnish and paint burns to ash , then they put it into a machine that shoots steel shot ( kind of like shotblasting but not as strong ) to break up the crustys and the blockcomes out really clean if done right ( they rotate and shake the block in a cage in the machine to remove all the shot and ash as posible ,and its more enviormently freindly and safer to boot as you don't have to worry about the tank spliting open and dumping Hot 150* C Caustic ( sodium hydroxide and ferric/ferous chloride mix ) all thru the shop and burning anyone ( which when I worked at a autoparts store as a teen had happen and it was a mess)
 
#53 ·
don' t feel bad I am laid up for a while as I tore a muscle in my rotator cuff and on some heavy pain meds , so I might be a little goofy on my posting( forgetting words or lettrs ,
Wow man, sorry to here that. I cant imagin how much pain you where in before they stuffed ya full of meds. My dad not to long ago thought he had done the same, turns out it was the cartlage in his joint that was gone. :pain:

Alright now, I have the #'s here they are 56, 46, 49, 45, 66, 55, 55.
I looked for the squirt holes but didnt see any. Its '74 block btw.


Thanks for the info on hot tanking vs baking. My auto teacher recomended I go see his friend who owns his own shop called Morano racing. They specialize in v6 fords from what the site says but all I need is hottanking, over bore, new cam bearings and the decking/ millig. I dont think it will make a difference what he specializes in and my teacher said not to worry, hes known him for a while and he knows his stuff. He actualy recomended me spending some time there learning about machining so lets se what happens :thumbup:

One other question though. I have the holley that came with the engine sitting infront of me now. The guy said it was most likely a 600 or 650 cfm. can anyone tell me what it is by running the numbers? I see alot of numbers But I have no idea what to look for lol.
 
#54 ·
handymann3 said:
I have the holley that came with the engine sitting infront of me now. The guy said it was most likely a 600 or 650 cfm. can anyone tell me what it is by running the numbers? I see alot of numbers But I have no idea what to look for lol.
Up on the choke stack on the primary side (unless the stack's been removed or didn't come w/one) there should be a 'List' number. Something like 1850-2 or 3310-4. That sort of thing.
 
#58 ·
Guys,

One thing I haven't seen in all the threads is a reference to Jim Hand. He's a master of the Pontiac V8 and has authored a Pontiac Engine Handbook, not to mention publishing numerous Tech articles. While you're waiting for Spring to come, read these articles and learn what makes your Pontiac run strong and reliably and what pitfalls to avoid in the go-fast department. Being 16 and on a limited budget, you'll find your 400 can make incredible torque and power with mainly stock components, including the factory intake manifold and a Quadrajet! (Cliff Ruggles has an awesome Q-Jet handbook!)

My 16 year old son and I just completed his first car this last spring, a '79 Trans Am that we bought as a roller two years earlier with no engine or trans for $1K. We bought a rebuilt Pontiac 350 shortblock for $450 and bought a set of 6X-4 heads for $400 and all the other stuff on E-Bay. After a few initial mistakes on the valvetrain it's now fun, quick and reliable. Learn from our mistake and don't re-use the 34-year old rocker arm studs in the 6X heads!

Check-out Jim Hand's Tech articles: http://www.dapa.org/streetmachine.htm

Here's a few links to my son's YouTube page of his car:
http://www.youtube.com/user/coutts1993#p/u/10/I7WQgLzEZas
http://www.youtube.com/user/coutts1993#p/u/5/19D_Me-zXRk

Have Fun!
:)
 
#59 · (Edited)
I hate to say this but Hands book is basically a rewrite of the info that Pete McCarthy and H.o.specialties ( hendrickson and osterstock )has given us back in the 70's and early 80's and alot of it is known to the people who raced them for years , and some of it I would disagree with from being a Student of Engineering and freinds in automotive Engineering ( some from PMD engineering ) and My former NHRA Superstock engine Builder Bill Foder ( NOT FULPER )

as for Ruggles great carb builder ( for restoration and Hi perf ) , Just Like Doug Roe Was .I have yet to get a copy of his book as I have Roes book from Years back
 
#60 ·
H man , the spreadbore Holley Isn't a bad carb , I just Prefer Q-Jets and with a Little reading and a couple of chevy spares you can experiment on ugrading them to flow vast amonts of fuel and fine tune them ( in super stock we were limited to the Q-jet and I could get one to idle@ 900 a 300*+ roller cam and flow enough fuel to keep a 400 Happy at 7800 rpm ) but since you already have it ( holley ) rebuild it ! its a great Idea and thought that your Autoshop teacher told you that , take him up on it , even if its not for pay ( maybe you can barter some shop time for sweep/clean up time) seeing how processes are done is more knowledge you gain ( thats why I take tours of facilities thru SAE when offered at confrences) and it makes it easier to understand whats done or get you in the door as an apprentice , most good machine shops look at a engine as a air compressor , but some of the ones down here only look at brand name. go for the one that looks at it as a compressor then brand , I use a shop that is mopar drag based ( otherwise I have to go on a road trip or to Detroit to get quality machine work ) but he also specializes in drag bike motors ( jap , brit , and H-D) and some Fords ( the Big FE's and when I say big I mean 600+ cubes ) ,and he don't put me down because of a little Arrowhead , he likes the different thinking (except my 301T project which he asks if I fell off the grinding stool again ...) and has adapted some of our speed secrets to his own motors for his car with some sucess .
 
#61 ·
you have a set of post 74 rods ( most likely the original ones from the motor ) and the weights are some what even ( except the oddball #66 must had a oddball piston ) , I will look in the buckets of 74 motor parts , need anything else while I'm in there ??? ( no ,not my cars or HO blocks either and a assembeld motor wont fit in to the little envelope either ......)
 
#64 ·
never used them ( summit ) for rebuilds , I heard good and bad ,the good being guys got a complete /proper kit filling out there order , or Bad like a guy I work with whos order was all fubarred ( in actuallity I think it was him not summit as he was more of a watch Tv and follow there lead was type of guy and wasn't to mechanically inclined and would always question what I told him to order finally it came to the point of I had him remove it from my shop and take it to the other guy ( that was 5+ years ago and its still on the stand and not tanked yet ) ) I never had a probem with Summit as all the stuff I buy so far has been correct and complete ( and they even called me back to double check on a few of the items unlike Jegs who have screwed up more of my orders and did some substitutions I didn't Want)

But first BEFORE you order ANYTHING get the block to the shop and get it tanked and measured ( to see if you can use a .030 overbore you might be lucky and it be less ) and pressure checked / magnafluxed ( looking for small cracks and defects in the cooling jackets and faces ) I had a block that looked like it could take a .030 over but the rust pitting on 2 bores had me take it out to .040.

as for parts ,Sealed Power ( old F-M) is top notch I used them in many street builds the pistons are a little heavy for my liking but the shop I deal with has the ability to lighten them , if this deal goes thru with you going to teachers buddy , see if he can get the parts for you cheaper ( some times you can get it for less from there warehouse supplier and no duty added ) also I don't really like Sealed powers pumps , I am a mellings person and spend the extra dough for there products ( I heard in the past that SP used to have mellings make there pumps for them but in the last 15 years they havent ( you look for the "m" on the casting ) see if they (summit) can upgrade on the pump to a mellings unit or find out if mellings is Sp supplier , the price of the kit is decent ( also factor in import dutys and GST )

as for the holley you have it for costs stick with it , if you can get a Q-jet from a chevy truck ( 25-35 series pre 79 or a buick or olds 455 q jet or one from a caddy with the 472-500 (as those are roughly in the 725-800 range carbs ) , the 400 might be happy with 650 cfm , depending on the cam with thelower cfm it will be super responsive when set up right ( the 455 H.O. has a 750 cfm on it and My 74 400 superstocker ( 650HP ) had a 1974 q-jet on it ( abeit it was internally worked for fuel flow it still had the same airflow as stock ) and it pushed a 3800 pound car into the 11's ( the 455 went high 10's low 10's with the 850 ) and when people sell them they always say they have a 750-800 quad NOT.... you have to know what your looking for in the booster area to tell the difference , most are rated at 700 -725 cfm
 
#65 ·
handymann3 said:
As for the carb, you shure I should stick with the holley? Will the 650 be enough?
In that you have the Holley 650 SB, it’s worth a try. Definitely not one of my favorite carbs (4175 series) but that’s me.

FWIW, I ran a 4777 Holley 650 DP (on a Performer intake w/a wooden spacer- this was the pre-RPM era) on my Pontiac 455. It was in a daily driven Camaro, mid 12’s @ 108 w/3.31 gears, shifted @ 4900 RPM. Could have just as easily been a Q-jet.

I prefer the 1705- 1708 prefix Q-jet carbs for high performance use, earlier carbs can be used as well but I like the later carbs. For the 800 CFM carbs, they were also used on 76-86 vans, pickups, etc.- even all the way down to the 4.3L V6. I have one sitting here right now, from a 1986 Sierra 4.3L. These are non-feedback carbs, BTW. Feedback carbs can be made to work w/o the feedback idle solenoid functional, but are better for strip use than street.

Even though Q-jets came in 750 or 800 CFM, they could be calibrated for most any size engine by linkage, air valve and throttle valve adjustments. Whether you use a 750 or 800 CFM core makes very little difference on your Pontiac 400 build. The 750 might be a bit more responsive down low (the primary throttle bore is a bit smaller), but set up right, you’d never tell them apart.
 
#69 ·
OLNOLAN said:
Ha, Pay $150 for the whole car, then one engine part costs the same. Makes my left eye get a twitch. Nowadays, oil and filter costs more than I could do a major tuneup including oil and filter in the old days. :D olnolan
That's the 'kicker'- "in the old days"...

Darn, it seems like 3-4 years ago but it was more like... can it really be... 15?!? years ago that I bought that wagon?

Recently someone mentioned ignition 'uni-points' costing like $20/set nowadays. I did a back flip (well, maybe a double take lol) when I read that.
 
#70 ·
Haha

That might have been me! The last set I bought was in/about 1990 for the old 455 Riviera. Blue Streak, like ta chit when the guy said that'll be $21.xx w/tax. I'm the same age as you Man, I'm having a hard time realizing that it ain't the old days no more. I go to the local parts store and beach about the prices, without a thought thats its 2010 and the price I'm comparing it to is what I sold them for when I worked in a parts store in 1973(gasp). Dam, thats only 37 years ago. Time flies by and I still refuse to grow up. HA HA :D olnolan. Sorry bout the hijack OP.
 
#71 ·
OLNOLAN said:
Thought you Pontiac dudes might like this. Saw it in a magazine, they're proud of it, based on price.olnolan

http://www.pacificperformanceracing.com/products/DSCN0345.JPG
Ace Brewers Piece , it is nice , its worth everything he asKs too as alot of time went into perfecting it .. it takes care of alot of problems the stock ones had with sealing .

as for parts your lucky to get a parts guy whos under 30 that know what points are !!!! or a set of dual ones and knows how to set them ... I asked for a set of points and a condensor for my "Kohler" engine in my cub and the guy looked at me like I was on drugs and said I might want to try Home depots plumbing dept , HUH?? the thought it was for a Faucet ...since I forgot the word engine ...
 
#72 ·
So yea, I think I will try and get a look around this machine shop and then save up to get my engine machined and all. depending how it turns out I think I will pick the summet engine rebuild kit.

As for the holly vs Q-jet, I like the holly but I just like the Q-jet a little more. Its the whole old school tech and how alot of people dought them. I can pick one up from a guy who must have hundreds. He sells 'em for $30 or $50 for two and he has chevy, BOP and all the years from 68 or 69 up.

About going to the parts store and the guy being lost to what a points and condenser where, thats sad. Especialy when he thought it was a foset LOL. I guess people just dont listen, especialy when you just said it was for a kohler :rolleyes: I actualy have set points on a small engine before, not that hard really.
 
#74 ·
well the nice thing is you don't have to worry about the crud falling out of the used one ,unless you split it ( which is hard to do without fubaring the thing been there done that , can make a sailor say "hey !! watch your language " ) and then tanking it you take the risk of the crud monsters llurking inside it as you just dried out the sludge in to crustys , and you don't have to worry about rust holes in the middle where the heat riser is at ( a big problem with cars with EGRS ) , you can find good ones , usually the ones I find lurk under the hoods of big cars like bonneviles or catalinas as they have the most protection in the underhood dept look for a car in the yard that the hood is shut as it won't allow snow or Ice and leaves to work its way to the cover . and if you have access to a solvent tank with a pump I ussually soak them in the solvent with the pump on for 2 days with a hose running into the pcv hole to try to flush a much gunk out as possible ( and DO NOT Sandblast it !!! use a chemical stripper to take off the paint ) as this baffle somehow collects all the sand in the leftover oil solids and lets them loose when its running , I ussually leave the question of if they want a new one to them , 9 times out of 10 I get the new ones for them ( after showin them one I have cut apart laying in the shop and the guys I rebuild for are getting there car restored ) its your choice , being when I build I am picky ( but I also make some decent money too ) ( trying not to spend your cash ) so I myself would pop for a new one or a real good used one for a streetcar .
 
#75 ·
man, so much GREAT advice on this thread!! :D

HATE haha to butt in but i have a question since somebody brought up JIM HAND. he recommends NOT touching the rods as far as smoothing casting lines or grinding on them. i totally thought that was weird because i have always done it to my chevys, just as you described herein.

however,,, since my pistons were already on my rods and i didn't feel like i could get to the tops enuf, but MAINLY cause jim hand said not to bother because his rods last forever (in that 455 wagon), i did not. i did most of the other stuff he recommended tho.

i did not drill the .030 hole by the distributor but i did make sure the machinist pulled that plug and the one that covers it to clean out the block.

but enuf about me.

My Q is just what you guys think about NOT removing the casting marks on stock rods. (i did resize w/ARPs). obviously if it didn't seem to do any good to him, why waste time, but on the other Hand, everybody else seems to do it. it seems to me his big reason was that a horizontal grind mark can cause a crack, but it you keep the grinder or stone running the length of the rod that wont happen. so this was my biggest point of confusion of anything in Jims book.

btw those holley spread bores totally rock a hot 350. worth a try till you find you for sure need a bigger qjet. you can always sell it for more than the cost of a used qjet and rebuild.

i love all the car set up tricks at the start of this thread too. saving to faves!

and m2c @ zero decking: i been told with the open chamber heads it doesnt make a bit of difference. i was gonna do mine too but just had them resurface it. i think they took off .005. i was 30 to 35 in the hole before resurfacing. maybe larger than most. i also heard most ponchos are only 020 down. but i have crappy aftermarket rebuilt pistons with 8 eyebrows. might be the reason.
 
#76 ·
bullheimer said:
JIM HAND. he recommends NOT touching the rods as far as smoothing casting lines or grinding on them.
This kind of surprises me. Possibly he's taking the cautious route- thinking that BAD rod finishing would be worse than NO rod finishing.

But just like w/quench (more on that later) some things are universal, be it a Pontiac, Chevy, Ford or John Deere. I believe removing stress risers is one of these "universals".

Will it hurt to leave them? Only time and RPM will tell, but IMHO I seriously doubt that a well-seasoned set of rods w/good bolts would suffer catastrophic failure just from NOT smoothing the beams.

i did not drill the .030 hole by the distributor but i did make sure the machinist pulled that plug and the one that covers it to clean out the block.
Basically a non-issue- the gear's splash-lubed as it is, and dwells below where there's oil draining back into the sump, so it really shouldn't be a problem. You can always pull the distributor every so often to assure yourself that no excessive wear's occurring- just for peace of mind. A real high oil pump relief spring will damage the gear far more than the hole not being in that rear plug, IMO.

and m2c @ zero decking: i been told with the open chamber heads it doesnt make a bit of difference.
The Pontiac engine isn't as dependant on CR as some engines seem to be. In max-effort drag engines, this is less so, but for a street driven engine, octane requirement takes precedence over CR.

But as to quench- this is (IMHO) another "universal". ANY engine that can get 'action' or turbulence on the fuel/air mixture as it's burning, will reap benefits. This is not just a "Chevy thing".
 
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