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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 02-17-2010, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handymann3
Then I will do the shot peen
This might have been mentioned already, but "shot peening" that will actually improve the strength/crack/fatigue resistance of a rod has to be done correctly, by a facility that has the right equipment for the job. It's a rather precise op- requiring the right size and hardness of shot, applied at the right velocity- to do the job. It's more than hitting the rods w/a sand or bead blaster, is what I'm getting at.

To get the most from the process, before peening the beams should be ground down 'smooth', to remove the casting irregularities that are present the length of the rod. You don't have to remove all traces of the parting lines, but there should be no voids or overlapped areas of metal left after the grinding has been completed.

Grinding must be done lengthwise, not across the rod. The sharp areas around the bolt and nuts are areas that can benefit from the same smoothing. These areas are too small and confined for most 1/4" die grinder-type stones or burrs; I use a Dremel (well, it's a Ryobi, actually) w/the smaller 1/8" points, finishing them off w/cratex points to put a polish on the areas that have been ground. This removes any stress risers that the grinding could cause. If the shot peening is going to be done, this final cratex polish isn't quite as important- I still do it, but I'm sure others don't. These Pontiac rods are cast, not forged steel- so I'll squander the extra labor on them- for peace of mind, if nothing else.

Quote:
Not to shure about the pvc but yea. So your saying that if I get a pvc in the valley cover I wont have to worry about having then on my rocker covers?
I'm not sure what you mean, but I'd strongly advise you to use a PCV system! The valley cover w/the PCV hole means you don't use the v-cover, correct.

The grommet for the PCV hole in the valley cover is a beach to find- they are available from GM (or were, anyway), but good luck on them having any. The parts store "HELP" section has a lot of grommets, but they don't last like the OEM grommets, though.

When you get the water pump off, inspect the separator plate for rust-through. If you need a replacement, look HERE. They also have the correct valley pan grommets, good rear main seals (don't use the OEM rope-type seal), new timing cases if yours is bad (and you can't locate a good, used one), and those hard-to-find heater fittings, too.

Pontiac uses a l o n g woodruff key to locate the damper and cam gear, you'll want to use a new one if the old one has any wear showing.

Be sure to replace the rubber grommets inside the water pump housing- they are always bad. Might even want to replace the W/P- budget allowing- while it's apart if there's any question as to its condition.

There will be plugs in the oil galleys, behind the cam timing gear. One of these will have a small (~0.030") hole through it to lube the timing set. This tiny hole will very often be occluded, so use a small pin or tie wrap wire, etc. to poke through and free it up. New pipe plugs (one w/hole) should come w/the set of new core plugs that you'll be getting.

Some guys will also use a holed pipe plug back by the distributor gear to lube it, as well.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 02-18-2010, 08:08 AM
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like Cobalt says try to use the valley pan PCV system , the big problems I have seen with the Valave cover system is 1. you have to rig a inner cover baffle to keep the excessive oil mist out of your Pcv system ( oil mist lowers the octane rating of the gas and will cause detonation and hammer out your bearings and mightcrack a rod or piston ) 2. it will cause excessive blue smoke like you have a bad ring or valveguide/seal 3. excessive moisture in the pulling cover which will form more sludge on that side head 4. have seen them pull VC gaskets in allowing oil to seap out when its not running .

like he said for the rods knock off the casting lines , after I got sick of my hands buzzing from my diegrinder ( milwaukee) and a couple of screw ups and having to buy the cratex heads ( where do you get them cheap in bullk ??) I now use a rubber backed 1/2 " ( 13 mm) sanding drum mounted in a drill press and move the table up so I just slide the rod around the drum , try to get the finish as fine as possible ( 6-800 grit finer if you can find it ) even if your not going to shotpeen do this before you balance the assy leave the balance pads alone ( the big chunks on the ends ) as the machine shop will beneeding them to help balance the rod assys as a group .

definately do the distributor oil trick ( drilling a .030 hole in the inner plug) as the oil pumps put a great load on the gear faces , and use the std mellings pump , there is no need for the Hi pressure pump unless your drag racing or using the large journal crank ( only in the 421/428/455 motors) as the large journel need the pressure to overcome the hydrodynamic issues , and DO NOT use the high volume pump as all it will do is push to much oil thru and not cool the bearing surfaces and can push out the bearing material and also causes excessive windage in the motor , you want to keep the clearances within spec on the crank bearings ( if the clearance is too big they sell thicker bearings ) , the High volume is a lazy mans crutch for not having the right clearances or a bad machinist .

if you weld the pan you have to anchor the face to a thick sheet of plywood to help prevent warping while welding , I kind of chuckeled when your were worried about pumping all the oil out of the pan , I have spun a 400 up to 7800 rpm with a stock 5 quart pan for 12 seconds and still had 60 psi ( no loss of oil covering the pick up ) I put the bigger pans on to help keep the heat down in the oil and the little added insurance , one thing I want to tell you is to check the bypass in the oil filter mount , take it apart and clean the seat of it and check the spring to see if its somewhat tight , I ( this is my personal opinion ) usually remove it and plug it off ( with a threaded plug ) or use a remote filter mount ,so it don't bypass as the spring will sometmes open at 10 psi and allow dirty oil thru the system , but thats my opinion , Cobalt what is yours ?? I use the stock 5/8 lower windage trays ( in the drag engines I use a custom one with a scraper) if you stud the lower end you will have to get it align honed , I made the mistake on one of my first engines and it destroyed the crank and block ( siezed several bearings at speed) the studs are nice , but you can get away with just new bolts ( ARP ) ( and yes I don't see Arp not having a lack of busisness from me or several of my freinds ) I do say stud the heads ( no extra machine work needed just make sure the threads in the holes have been chased and the top of the hole is chamfered so the material dont pull out and follow the assy instructions to a T !

I will dig thru my rods and try to find a good one and get the piston removed . ( give me about a week as I am in the midst of remodeling one of my houses, if you can see what number is at the bottoms of the rods so I can try to get a rough balance ( they are around the lower end and are a cast number not stamped ) also need to know if they have squirt holes in the caps ( on the side which is a pre 74 thing )

now I hope you have a dedicated area to assemble this creature when you get ready , by all means make sure its clean , dry , well lit, and clean !!! I cover my motor up while assy with 50 gallon industrial garbage bags , ( the motor bags summit sells are nice too , but I can get the 25 bags for $4.99 a roll, I just slide the motor in it while on the stand. one word of advice keep copys the assembly specs handy ( I photocopy them and them put them in a clear holder page so my books don't get all asy lube covered and the plages are less apt to flip ) and make a check list so you don't have to double guess yourself after the motor is done and put back in the car.


aint all this fun ???? please warn us when your head is about to start spinning around like in Poltergist ...
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 02-18-2010, 08:09 AM
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did cobalt say anything too you about blueprinting the block before getting it cleaned ??
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 02-18-2010, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stimpy
did cobalt say anything too you about blueprinting the block before getting it cleaned ??
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stimpy
( this is my personal opinion ) usually remove it and plug it off ( with a threaded plug ) or use a remote filter mount ,so it don't bypass as the spring will sometmes open at 10 psi and allow dirty oil thru the system , but thats my opinion , Cobalt what is yours ??
I agree, no bypass.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 02-18-2010, 09:53 AM
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Here is some info to help in the Knowledge Base,
http://www.hotrodders.com/kb/pontiac-engines
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 02-18-2010, 10:01 AM
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a good cheap thing to do is to blueprint the block , I know your saying... huh where do I get blueprints... they aren't needed , its a phrase improperly used meaning clean up the block and bring it to blueprint dimentions , you get a demel or some type of mototool and a carbide burr or grinding stones ( you will need a bunch as they wear down quick ) and grind of all the casting flash on the block and try to smooth the seams down ( for the exterior I use a 4" (12cm ) grinder ) , you do this to the exterior and in the lifter valley , around the lifter castings , I also try to smooth some of the oil drain areas back too , ( you can use a sand roll or flapper wheel to make the finish smoother ) the purpose is to 1. prevent a place for a stress crack to start 2. help oil drain back and get rid of ledges for gunk to build up 3. prevent any of the casting flash from breaking off and falling into the engine or on the camshaft ( which always happens at the most inopertune time ) 4. the most important in my book prevent stitchmakers .. whats a stitchmaker ?? its a piece of flash that cuts you when your working so bad ,you have to go to the doctor to get stitches ... they sell a book on blueprinting the sa design one by voeglin is good it covers the sbc but basically apllies to all motors and is a good peice of reference ( I had mine for for years and its falling apart its been loaned out that much) its about $20 at a good bookstore italso goes into tools and how to use them , and some of the real blueprinting processes (which Racers use)
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 02-18-2010, 10:17 AM
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GM has a performance manual that has what you are asking , thats the book everyone else copies and sells.
Plus what stimpy said above.

ren
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 02-18-2010, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1BAD80
GM has a performance manual that has what you are asking , thats the book everyone else copies and sells.
Plus what stimpy said above.

ren
thats the manual that GM copys what everyone else says , and it don't have
information on any of the old Pontiacs , not the Chebbie that calls itself a Pontiac .


BTW: Ren is laying at my feet ( shes a American staffie /boxer mix )
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 02-18-2010, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1BAD80
GM has a performance manual
Chevy Power? My old 5th. Ed. has the V6 60 degree, the 4.3L V6, SBC, BBC and the Cosworth Vega.

Nothing about Pontiac- not even the Iron Duke. But it does say Chevy Power...
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 02-18-2010, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by cobalt327
Chevy Power?
Nothing about Pontiac- not even the Iron Duke. But it does say Chevy Power...
there is such a thing ??? I thought all they did was make noise like a Honda that had been supersized ....


my moto for hondas FARTCANS forever !!!!
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 02-18-2010, 09:09 PM
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[QUOTE=stimpy]like Cobalt says try to use the valley pan PCV system.

Yea, I think I will go this rout. It means all I need is the pvc breather in the valley pan and thats all right?


Quote:
like he said for the rods knock off the casting lines.
So just knock off extra casting flash with a good dremel and finish it with a 600-8000 grit sanding drum. Then I just sent 'em in to get ballanced right?

Quote:
even if your not going to shotpeen do this before you balance the assy
So should I really go shotpeen and resize the rods?

Quote:
definately do the distributor oil trick ( drilling a .030 hole in the inner plug) as the oil pumps put a great load on the gear faces
Yea, I think I will do that distributor trick.

Oh, and as for the welding of the oil pan. I will be shure to do what you said and fasten it to some pretty dirty ply wood to minimise warping. I never knew about that oil filter by-pass, I dont really see why you would want to bypass the oil filter. I will defenently be pluging up that little hole. I will alsodo the deeper pan just to be safe, I know what your saying about having more oil to disipate the heat through and not just sucking up the same hot oil over and over. I will also just pick up a lower windage tray so I can keep the stock mounts.


Quote:
you can get away with just new bolts ( ARP ) ( and yes I don't see Arp not having a lack of busisness from me or several of my freinds ) I do say stud the heads ( no extra machine work needed just make sure the threads in the holes have been chased and the top of the hole is chamfered so the material dont pull out and follow the assy instructions to a T !
Yea, I was just gunna go with the standard arp main bolts. I didnt think studing and all that was nessesary for what I am reaching for with the 400. I am also going to pick a arp kit up. I am missing alot of things on this engine and for $95 I can get all the bolts I need. I will forshure use arps on the heads though.


Quote:
I will dig thru my rods and try to find a good one and get the piston removed . ( give me about a week as I am in the midst of remodeling one of my houses, if you can see what number is at the bottoms of the rods so I can try to get a rough balance ( they are around the lower end and are a cast number not stamped ) also need to know if they have squirt holes in the caps ( on the side which is a pre 74 thing )
Alright, no rush on the connecting rods. I cant give you any numbers on the rods for a couple days ( Parents are divorced and I am stuck at my dads for the next few days while my engine is at my moms ) same thing with the squirt holes. Its a 1974 block so I dont think so...

Quote:
now I hope you have a dedicated area to assemble this creature when you get ready , by all means make sure its clean , dry , well lit, and clean !!! I cover my motor up while assy with 50 gallon industrial garbage bags , ( the motor bags summit sells are nice too , but I can get the 25 bags for $4.99 a roll, I just slide the motor in it while on the stand. one word of advice keep copys the assembly specs handy ( I photocopy them and them put them in a clear holder page so my books don't get all asy lube covered and the plages are less apt to flip ) and make a check list so you don't have to double guess yourself after the motor is done and put back in the car.
Right now I have the bare block and all the parts in my basement. Its a heavy mother as it is so I think I will slap togeather a shed with some of the wood I have lying around just so I can build this thing outside. Dont worry, I will take all the procautions, water tight, cover the engine, well lit and all. I will wait untill I have ALL the parts before I take it outside. Unfortunently I dont have a garage I have already make a list of parts and everything (more like 3 or 4 ) I really wanna do this right. Once this T/A is done, Its really gunna be the be all in the end all around where I live

Quote:
aint all this fun ???? please warn us when your head is about to start spinning around like in Poltergist ...
I am holding on pretty tight right now, I am just adding all this up and realizing it will be a while before I collect all the parts and GET 'ER DONE!
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Old 02-18-2010, 09:29 PM
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a good cheap thing to do is to blueprint the block , I know your saying... huh where do I get blueprints...
Na, I knew what blue printing was , I was already thinking about doing this. I was looking at the block the other day and thres ALOT of extra material around the lifer gallery.



Quote:
3. prevent any of the casting flash from breaking off and falling into the engine or on the camshaft ( which always happens at the most inopertune time )
I laughed my *** off when I read that. Doesnt it just seem that your engine blows up or gets ruined at the worst time LOL.

Quote:
4. the most important in my book prevent stitchmakers .. whats a stitchmaker ?? its a piece of flash that cuts you when your working so bad ,you have to go to the doctor to get stitches
I also laughed when I read that. That defenently doesnt sound to good

Quote:
they sell a book on blueprinting the sa design one by voeglin is good it covers the sbc but basically apllies to all motors and is a good peice of reference ( I had mine for for years and its falling apart its been loaned out that much) its about $20 at a good bookstore italso goes into tools and how to use them , and some of the real blueprinting processes (which Racers use)
I guess I will be making a couple of trips around town looking for books. No worries though, I would have to learn it sooner or later and atleast I will have some refererence books.
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Old 02-19-2010, 12:18 AM
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Yea, I didnt know how exacly how shotpeening worked but I did know what it did and that it wasnt sand blasting it.



Quote:
To get the most from the process, before peening the beams should be ground down 'smooth', to remove the casting irregularities
Yea, I will be shrure to clean up the extra little bits. No big deal anyway, I dont think it will really be that hard to do as long as I take my time.

Quote:
When you get the water pump off, inspect the separator plate for rust-through. If you need a replacement,
Yea I dont even have a water pump to worry about. I have the plate that the water pump sits on witch is aluminum and its junk unless I can get this part of the old water pump out. Theres some metal stuff stuck in one of the paths leading into the block. I got the engine all in parts and missing some things so yea, dont ask me how you manage a trick like that lol. Oh, and thanks for the link btw, I am sure I will end up picking some things up from there.
Quote:
Pontiac uses a l o n g woodruff key to locate the damper and cam gear, you'll want to use a new one if the old one has any wear showing.
Yea, I am missing mine so I will be shure to pick one up. I actualy have the stock harmonic, will that still work well enough if its not so beaten up? (the guy forgot to drop it off the first time so I havent seen it yet).


Quote:
There will be plugs in the oil galleys, behind the cam timing gear. One of these will have a small (~0.030") hole through it to lube the timing set. This tiny hole will very often be occluded, so use a small pin or tie wrap wire, etc. to poke through and free it up. New pipe plugs (one w/hole) should come w/the set of new core plugs that you'll be getting.
I will be shure to take a look at the hole and clean it out. I am not shure what you mean about the pipe plugs though? I know what the core plugs are but yea...lol, just a little lost this time.

Quote:
Some guys will also use a holed pipe plug back by the distributor gear to lube it, as well.
Same thing here, not totaly shure what you mean. sorry, now I am really confused.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 02-19-2010, 09:57 AM
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So should I really go shotpeen and resize the rods?
Resize yes. I didn't bother doing the SP to my rods in any of the cast rod engines I've built- but that said, if you have someone who can do it RIGHT, and it's not too expensive, sure- why not?

But the costs start to quickly add up- to a point where you say, why not spend the extra and get forged rods w/good bolts already in them, already sized and set weight matched for a few dollars more?

Quote:
I never knew about that oil filter by-pass, I dont really see why you would want to bypass the oil filter. I will defenently be pluging up that little hole
The only things w/plugging the bypass is- no revving the engine before the oil's warmed up or the filter can burst or blow its gasket out.

And, if the filter isn't changed regularly, the filter can slowly plug up and this will lower the oil pressure until there eventually is none. Not an issue w/a performance engine that gets regular oil/filter changes, but for the general public, not good.

Quote:
I will for shure use arps on the heads though.
Just be aware that if you use studs, the heads will not come off w/o pulling the engine from the car if there's a need to do so. The studs are long enough that the heads can't be pulled out and off of the studs w/the available room in the engine compartment. Bolts work fine at the CR level you are at and no nitrous. If you were going to hit it w/NO2, use studs.

Quote:
I guess I will be making a couple of trips around town looking for books. No worries though, I would have to learn it sooner or later and atleast I will have some refererence books.
There are a couple good sites on the interweb, too.

Butler- http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/

Kens- http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/pontiac...chineshop.html

Nunzi- http://www.nunzi-pontiac-expert.com/

Rock & Roll Engineering- http://pontiacpower.com/

SD Performance- http://www.sdperformance.com/

And there are magazines on Pontiac on the web:

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance.com/

http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/

And others, you can do a search on google for them. These magazines have tech sections w/articles, etc.

Quote:
I am not shure what you mean about the pipe plugs though? I know what the core plugs
*snip* use a holed pipe plug back by the distributor gear to lube it
If you look at the front of the block, you'll see the plugs. They are at the ends of the oil galleys that run the length of the block, front to rear.

Actually, I was in error when I wrote that they were PIPE plugs. They are CUP plugs (like mini core plugs, sorta), one of these small cup plugs has the hole I spoke of. I replace these w/pipe plugs.

The plug back by the distributor is the pipe plug that's included w/most core plug sets- a similar type plug can also be used in the front cup plug (the one w/the hole) position if the hole is tapped for the NPT thread. Otherwise, use the holed cup plug that's supplied w/the core plug set in that position. The need to replace the cup plugs w/threaded pipe plugs isn't as critical in your application (standard pressure and volume pump). Just so the plugs are properly installed and staked into position, you'll have no problem, IMO.

As for the oil pump pressure- there's a middle ground between high pressure and standard pressure. Try to ask what the pressure specs are for the Melling oil pump you are getting (it was Melling, wasn't it?) and as long as it's around 50 psi, you should be fine. You don't want to go lower is all. There are different pressure relief springs that can be used to put the pressure where you want it
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Old 02-20-2010, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handymann3
I laughed my *** off when I read that. Doesnt it just seem that your engine blows up or gets ruined at the worst time LOL..

yes like a high stakes race , and the most embarasing part was it didn't do it while going down the strip, noooooo ....it had to do it idling up to the line


.[/QUOTE]

I also laughed when I read that. That defenently doesnt sound to good
.[/QUOTE]

I have a scar (s) on the back of well ...both of myhands ( I just looked at them ) the one from tearing apart a RA 4 motor that was going for its first rebuild , and the other from working on a chebbie , the RA4 one I will be proud of, the chebbie one well it was a mistake working on it ...

I never gave thought to the aftermarket rods like Cobalt mentioned as I don't really look at things like that when I build one , granted I do use stock rods with the arp bolts in some of the rebuilds I do ( restorations ) and use aftermarkets in others ( nitrous motor ) , I would follow his suggestion and get the price of redoing the rods and see if they are compairable in pricing to getting a decent H beam rod , my guy charges $150 Plus parts ($65 for the arp rod bolts ) so total is $215 + taxes to clean, pressbolts and resize Good up to 500 hp ( no Nitrous or blower ) . its only $100 more for the aftermarkets and they are stronger and lighter , if your doing giggle gas spend the extra and definately get the aftermartets .

Last edited by stimpy; 02-20-2010 at 06:21 AM.
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