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Old 11-17-2011, 07:16 AM
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Pontiac Performance parts

I am looking for a reliable company for Pontiac Performance parts
(Rotating Assembly, Heads Etc) I had some info for Rock and Roll engineering but lost my contact. I have a customer that wants to build a 421 from a 389 (LOL) But I need some serious parts. Anybody have any Ideas? I am located in the Connecticut Area
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Old 11-17-2011, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacktop Motorsports
I am looking for a reliable company for Pontiac Performance parts
(Rotating Assembly, Heads Etc) I had some info for Rock and Roll engineering but lost my contact. I have a customer that wants to build a 421 from a 389 (LOL) But I need some serious parts. Anybody have any Ideas? I am located in the Connecticut Area
Rock and Roll has some serious credibility issues according to a few trustworthy guys here. Personally I have never dealt w/them. I can recommend Butler.

Congrats on your customer's desire to build a Pontiac engine. There are many ways to go about it, but suffice to say that "bigger is better" in the case of Pontiac engines, IMO. They lend themselves to making very good torque w/o needing to turn high RPM. To that end, a longer stroke is often used to turn a 400 Pontiac into a small journal 455. This allows more leeway for spinning it up because of the smaller journal OD, but not all 400 blocks are suited for stroking. The block to avoid is the casting number 500557, should you end up using a 400 block for some reason. You can get 421 from the 389 by a 0.030" overbore and a 4" stroke crank. But personally, I'd build at least a 455 and call it whatever you want.

SOME SITES FOR PONTIAC PARTS & INFO:

Ken “Ace” Brewer @ Pacific Performance Racing- http://www.pacificperformanceracing.com/index.html

Butler Performance- http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/

SD Performance- http://www.sdperformance.com/

Performance Years Pontiac (One of the largest sites)- http://www.performanceyears.com/

Ken’s Speed & Machine Shop- http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/pontiac...chineshop.html

Nunzi- http://www.nunzi-pontiac-expert.com/

Fulper* aka Rock & Roll Engineering- http://pontiacpower.com/
*Two of the Pontiac guys here have warned about this guy. I have had no dealings w/him personally, so have no comment either way- except to say his claims and rhetoric is definitely "over the top".

SD Performance- http://www.sdperformance.com/

Tin Indian Performance http://www.tinindianperformance.com/

Kauffman Racing Equipment- http://www.krepower.com/

All Pontiac.com- http://www.allpontiac.com/

Wallace Racing- http://www.wallaceracing.com/


A FEW SELECTED ARTICLES BY JIM HAND (there are many more)

Jim Hand “BUILDING A STRONG STREET MACHINE”@ Classic Firebird
http://www.classicfirebird.com/hand/hand.html

Hand on Cams
http://www.dapa.org/jhpages/pontiac-cams.htm’

Hand on ROCKER RATIOS/MODS
http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....ockerArms.html


PONTIAC MAGS ON THE WEB:

Pontiac Street Performance
http://www.pontiacstreetperformance.com/

Pontiac Street Performance Featured Cars & Engines
http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....turedcars.html

Pontiac Street Performance Tech Articles
http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....harticles.html

High Performance Pontiac
http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/

Also, there have been numerous threads here- hit the "Search" for more info.

Finally, verify everything- including my info. Pontiac lore is flat ATE UP w/bad, misleading and/or incomplete information.

Good luck.
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Old 11-17-2011, 11:38 AM
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Why the "LOL" about 389? Excellent engine. 4.06" x 3.75". Effectively a ".060 under" 400...

Be VERY careful who you do business with. A search on the larger Pontiac sites will reveal a lot. performanceyears.com, pontiaczone.com are among the better sites. Pontiacstreetperformance.com is another, not as "big", but good people and good info and only a little "sniping". That's my "home" site. Bill Boyle is an old friend. His T/A has "our" heads on it... (:-

Jim Hand's book "How to Build Max-performance Pontiac V8s", published by SA Designs, is the most current "study", aimed strictly at street performance. Though 7 years old now, still very good for general info on the true potential and the hazards of NOT using "sound" Pontiac techniques. They're NOT like Chevy engines, and attempts to build them similar usually results in low power and short life.

We've built 389s into 421s easy enough. There are some forged 4" stroke cranks around, but drying up. RPM is the brand. Ace (PPR) sells those, if he has any left. Eagle offers the best aftermarket stuff at reasonable cost. They have forgings and castings. Don't be afraid to use a cast crank. Unlike other engines, the crank is the strong point, and the block is the weak link. We have MANY 600-plus HP pump gas engines using the Eagle 4.25" casting or the factory "nodular" castings. And 2-bolt mains are fine, at least up to 700 HP. Vinnie Madeya (SoCal) has gone 6.90s with both a stock 400 block and crank (1,700 or so HP).

Forged connecting rods are a "must". The RPM 5140 is a good "economy" replacement. The Eagle H-beam is the best for the price.

The Pontiac has gotten a "bad rap" over the years, mostly diue to not understanding what makes it unique. Build to the strong points and the Chevy boys will HATE you! Afterall, GTO didn't earn a reputation for losing... (:-

Butler Performance is the "premiere" Pontiac shop in the country. They currently hold the "top spot", their promod running 6.20s. Our funny car (Dirty Bird) is currently #2 (still quickest funny), running 6.40s with the "little" 475. Thr 505 has yet to make a "clean" pass, but has shown potential for high 5s. Ames Performance is the bestter outlet for "stock" parts, as far as the "car" is concerned. Not necessarily good for engine parts. KRE has some nice stuff, too. Let the buyer beware (business practices). RRE? Ancient history. Ken Keefer (Pontiac Dude) is very good and has some good products. Nice guy, too. Ugly, but honest... Paul Carter in Tucson, if you're out West, is another good one. I'll reserve comment on the others named.

Jim
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Old 11-17-2011, 06:14 PM
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X 2 with both posts here. They pretty much summed it all up.
I too am building a 389.I have it punched to 4.120
I was considering going to the 4 inch stroke ( kinda wish I had) but my 3.75 armasteel crank was in great shape( standard ) so I stuck with that.
Glad to have another ponti-yaker here.
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Old 11-18-2011, 10:18 PM
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Tin Indians

Yea, I had a 65 GTO back in 1967. I punched it out to a 421 changed the rods to Mondillo;Gutted out the interior, removed everything I could that was removeable, had a crank made, sent out to Mr Isky and had a solid cam made and ran a 10:59. I thought that was serious. With the availablity of performance parts today I might see the 9's You think?
Thanks for you input.
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Old 11-19-2011, 08:00 AM
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10.50s is serious, regardless. In 1967, a MONSTER. Do you remember who did the heads? Just curious, SoCal kid, went to my first pro race at Pamona in Jan, '68. Did HTC do the crank? Or Wilson Bros?

Today, it's completely doable, 9 secong pump-gas Pontiacs. There are a couple approaches to it. The "easy" way is big money, aftermarket components (block, heads, crank, etc.) and the budget to "see it through". Build a big displacement (505, 540) torque monster. While there are lots of top-level Pontiac components available, not many "used" (yet). E-heads are the first "real" modern component to start showing up on classified lists. Not many blocks. The cast cranks are plentiful. Forgings are still being "hung on to".

We recently finished a 540 for a '69 Firebird that should go 9s on pump gas. It will be Spring before we know.

The other approach is to build a shorter stroke version and rev it hard. Just like other "brands", if you spin a 440 CID Pontiac to 7,500, it's GONNA make power. We've found even the "smaller" ones make a ton of torque and can remain "drivable" to a very high level of tune. Our "long rod" 406 is popular, too. Again, like others, the key is in the heads and valve train. Factory iron is passe, but still capable of more than you might think. Gene Kinch runs 9.90s "on motor", 3,200 lb. '68 GTO (Gallopin' Goat), stock block 455, 670 ('67 GTO) d-port heads. It's a race car with compression, but the "little" heads show the potential. Using E-heads, or even KRE D-ports can make for a VERY powerful engine. Tigers, Ram Air Vs from McCarty, KRE High Ports have all proven to make power to rival any BBC of similar displacement, short of the pro-stocks. The KRE "Warp 6" shows pro-stock potential, but is yet to be fully sorted. The CV-1 has it's following, too, but it's a small group. I know of at least two 8 second pump-gas CV-1 engines.

So, whuddya wanna do? BIG torque or high revs? The 440 and 475 (4" strokes) have a near "perfect" 1.7:1 rod/stroke ratio when you use the 6.8 "BBC" rod. Our 475 went 9,200 on every pass in Dirty Bird. Zero internal issues, 40 passes (and two "aborted"). The 505 and 540 aftermarkets, and the 461 (400 "stroker" or bored 455) make more torque than HP up to 700 or so, all under 7,000. The stock block becomes a "liability" beyond 700. Some live fine. Others die a horrible death. There are certain 400 blocks that can "take" more than the rest ('70-mid '75). SD blocks are just too rare to consider. The '67-'69 400 is also very good, but limited in mounting points. With mid-plates and elephant ears, they're just fine. No need for "4-bolt" until power exceeds 650-700, either. The only weak point in the stock bottom end were the cast rods. The overall design and oiling are quite good. IA-II cures all your block "woes". We make 2,500 HP and the Butlers have made nearly 3,000, and the blocks are showing no real stress.

Jim
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