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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2012, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72
So you can spend $500 for worked over POS heads or $600 for new 210 aluminum Chinese (eeeek, gasp, etc., etc.) that are in every way better? This doesn't even consider what you can find used or rebuilt locally. I have a buddy that will sell you your choice of "double humps" for $250 a set- fully rebuilt.

I went the 416 route once, and I'll never do it again. To be honest its no longer even worth rebuilding a set of Vortecs unless you're just doing a spring swap, guide work and some light porting.
if you can buy fully rebuilt camel; hump heads for $250 go for it.
Questionalble casting go for more than that here:
Most of the used stuff is used up fubared junk. Thats why its for sale cheap.

What complete chinese cylinder heads are $600 to your door in Canada.



Wonder what I could Do with a decent chinese casting. That ain't going to get all done for $460 all inc.

These are not 500 horsepower heads. But they do make 400+ hp when you jack then up and slide a 400hp capable motor under them.

The only vortecs I would buy is a new casting. Or a guaranteed mag checked head.

I have never even seen a cracked 305 head.
If I need a Camel hump casting I have a source, but he does not give them away. LOL.

My 305 head stuff performs to expectation or I would not do it.
There are many ways to skin a cat. And this is hosw you do the 305 head cat at reasonable cost. Its up to you to keep the budget in check.

For power beyond that:

For new castings I don;t buy junk. I like Brodix, Dart, Edelbrock ,AFR, GMPP
Summit Racing house branded etc. All the chinese casting I have looked at in person so far did not seem worth the cost and rework hassle. They seem to be improving thou. The cheapest stuff is getting more and more expensive. The good CNC Patriots (the real deal ones) etc are just as costly as a USA cast head. More entry level stuff is entering the market.

Note: If the stock 305 heads I start with have fubared guides I don;t buy them. I have never paid more than $35 for a usable set. Lots of times people give them to me. There are a few other GM SBC casting I keep an eye out for.
Cause I know I can make then into a pretty good head for the money.
I don;t even look for used vortecs.

Search my old posts for pics etc of completed poor man's 305 racer heads .
if I can do it you can too.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 03-12-2012 at 09:01 AM.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2012, 09:25 AM
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The cheapest assembled entry level Patriot cylinder head is $735 /pair
plus all taxes ( 13% in Canada) + shipping.
Todays current price.
its a sudo vortec head.

The cheapest Freedom series head is $815/pr + all taxes and shipping.

The Summit "street strip" aluminum /Brodix IK200 is a hot deal.
The GMPP Bowtie Vortecs are a hot deal.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2012, 09:25 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
if you can buy fully rebuilt camel; hump heads for $250 go for it.
Questionalble casting go for more than that here:
Most of the used stuff is used up fubared junk. Thats why its for sale cheap.

What complete chinese cylinder heads are $600 to your door in Canada.



Wonder what I could Do with a decent chinese casting. That ain't going to get all done for $460 all inc.

These are not 500 horsepower heads. But they do make 400+ hp when you jack then up and slide a 400hp capable motor under them.

The only vortecs I would buy is a new casting. Or a guaranteed mag checked head.

I have never even seen a cracked 305 head.
If I need a Camel hump casting I have a source, but he does not give them away. LOL.

My 305 head stuff performs to expectation or I would not do it.
There are many ways to skin a cat. And this is hosw you do the 305 head cat at reasonable cost. Its up to you to keep the budget in check.

For power beyond that:

For new castings I don;t buy junk. I like Brodix, Dart, Edelbrock ,AFR, GMPP
Summit Racing house branded etc. All the chinese casting I have looked at in person so far did not seem worth the cost and rework hassle. They seem to be improving thou. The cheapest stuff is getting more and more expensive. The good CNC Patriots (the real deal ones) etc are just as costly as a USA cast head. More entry level stuff is entering the market.

Note: If the stock 305 heads I start with have fubared guides I don;t buy them. I have never paid more than $35 for a usable set. Lots of times people give them to me. There are a few other GM SBC casting I keep an eye out for.
Cause I know I can make then into a pretty good head for the money.
I don;t even look for used vortecs.

Search my old posts for pics etc of completed poor man's 305 racer heads .
if I can do it you can too.
I don't know what the CN cost is of any of this, I'm in MO, smack in the middle of the US so I only watch US prices. Maybe the chinese heads are $800+ up there in which case reworking a stock head may make sense, a 416 would still be down on my list though, I'd prefer Vortec or "double hump" heads, the later being much heavier and durable but having a poorer chamber and tiny port. Those heads usually are not "given away" but when you're sinking that much time and money into heads anyway it makes sense to start with something worth working on.

You didn't mention the time it takes to get a set of 416's into decent shape- 20+ hours.


The heads can be reworked as you have described and it is an improvement, but when you look at the cost/bennefit it doesn't make sense to even venture down that road unless you have all the tools to do it and your time is worth nothing.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2012, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72
I don't know what the CN cost is of any of this, I'm in MO, smack in the middle of the US so I only watch US prices. Maybe the chinese heads are $800+ up there in which case reworking a stock head may make sense, a 416 would still be down on my list though, I'd prefer Vortec or "double hump" heads, the later being much heavier and durable but having a poorer chamber and tiny port. Those heads usually are not "given away" but when you're sinking that much time and money into heads anyway it makes sense to start with something worth working on.

You didn't mention the time it takes to get a set of 416's into decent shape- 20+ hours.


The heads can be reworked as you have described and it is an improvement, but when you look at the cost/bennefit it doesn't make sense to even venture down that road unless you have all the tools to do it and your time is worth nothing.
The current prices I quoted are US prices. The Canadian Dollar is just over par. There was a time when the Can $ was worth .60 US. DO that math.

The time is just time you otherwise waste on the internet.

Ya I own a few tools. I fix my own car.
Summit is a 4 hour drive from my house. Fortunately its a nice drive to Ohio.

I used to get brand new vortec castings dirt cheap but not any more.

My POS $460/pr 305 heads are mid 12sec ET performance capable (3500LBS)
I'm just telling you how I do it.
You make up all the excuses you want.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 03-12-2012 at 09:38 AM.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2012, 09:42 AM
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We won;t even discuss what it costs to walk out of a Canadian retail Speed Shop with a new set of performance cylinder heads under your arm.

You don't want to go there.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2012, 10:14 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
The current prices I quoted are US prices. The Canadian Dollar is just over par. There was a time when the Can $ was worth .60 US. DO that math.

The time is just time you otherwise waste on the internet.

Ya I own a few tools. I fix my own car.
Summit is a 4 hour drive from my house. Fortunately its a nice drive to Ohio.

I used to get brand new vortec castings dirt cheap but not any more.

My POS $460/pr 305 heads are mid 12sec ET performance capable (3500LBS)
I'm just telling you how I do it.
You make up all the excuses you want.

Its not excuses, its figuring a cost/bennefit relationship- I've gone down the 416 heads route and having been there I know its not worth it. mid 12's is a decent time, but mid 12's can be had with just about any head that came on a 350 if you put in the work.

The one thing the 305 heads can do is raise your compression, but if you're buying pistons anyway that's a non-issue. I've worked on a lot of different SBC heads, and while I keep telling myself I won't touch another one I have a set of LT1's on my bench now.

After going through all the expense and trouble I learned that you're better off starting with a good core rather than what's free. Which is why I keep teling myself not to waste time on SBC anything when the LS stuff is SO much better and the prices have become very reasonable.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2012, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72
when the LS stuff is SO much better and the prices have become very reasonable.
Yes the LS motor is getting more and more sexy every day to Joe average rodder.. A future LS motor project is on my radar.

I'd love to get a hold of a LS-3 and do my thing on that one.

low buck 5.3L LS out of a truck with a B&M/Weiand blower and a few tweeks would be fun too.
A ton of potential in these motors.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 03-12-2012 at 10:25 AM.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2012, 10:48 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
Yes the LS motor is getting more and more sexy every day to Joe average rodder.. A future LS motor project is on my radar.

I'd love to get a hold of a LS-3 and do my thing on that one.

low buck 5.3L LS out of a truck with a B&M/Weiand blower and a few tweeks would be fun too.
A ton of potential in these motors.
Exactly, you can pick up a 5.3L for $500 if you keep an eye out. Clean up the heads, cam and spring swap, headers and a used intake swap and bam, 450hp that is VERY driveable, will last a LONG time, and requires no continual fiddling (like a carb).

If I get the new job/raise I'm looking at I'll be picking up an '06-'07 CTSV for a cam, headers, and exhaust upgrade. Leave the rest stock and put a million miles on it.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2012, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
I don't sell cylinder heads
I am telling you what it cost me to do my ported 305 heads.
I stand corrected. The "tax included" made it sound to me like that's what you were selling them for. $500 plus 20 hours... I don't know if I personally could justify it, but if you have the spare time and are so inclined, I guess it's a good deal. But it does seem like a lot of work and money for mid 12's.
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Old 03-19-2012, 11:17 PM
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Ok, so this thread kinda got off course. I'm debating between the different heads I have up in the garage right now. I'm going to admit this, the main reason I'm wanting to slap a motor together to get the car running, is that things move VERY slowly around here. If I don't force the issue to get this car running, it won't be running till next year. I simply want the sbc in the bird. I can build a motor in anyone's garage, but my usual garage is the only one with welders and air compressors to do the chassis.
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