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Old 03-10-2012, 11:14 PM
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Poor mans race motor

Hey guys, this is my first post here, but I've lurked on here for quite a while. My question is, I'm building a CHEAP 355 sbc for my 83 Thunderbird. I have a good 2 bolt main 350 block, freshened rods with ARP bolts, and a set of 416 305 heads. This will be a race only motor, and will be ran off E85 so running higher compression is not a problem. I haven't decided on a piston or cam yet. I need a few suggestions on those two. I was thinking a small dome piston, heads ported, unshrouded with 1.94 intake valves. I already have guide plates and screw-in studs. I'm wanting to build this motor to get the car going until I can get my 302 chevy motor built and the car lightened up.

Thanks guys
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:05 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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If budget is tight why are you planning to build 2 engines? Why do you want a 302? Why waste the time and money on those heads? None of that makes sense.

If you want to do it right forget the 302 idea. Spend money on building a reliable 350 short block and keep an eye out for 200-220cc heads that you can get a deal on. Scrap the 416's. The cost of new valves and a valve job will cover half of a good set of heads so why waste it on 416's? For moving that heavy car you'll need all the power you can get so don't waste your time chasing less cubic inches.
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:22 AM
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the main reason I'm buildng the first motor is because I have most of that stuff laying around already. I also want to build the first 350 to get the car running this season. I have all the machines to rework the heads and to do valvejobs with. also, I'm not dead set on a 302, I wanted to build one so I could say the ford had a 302 in it.
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:33 AM
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But you can still say its a 302.
i have a 496 in my 67 Camaro n tell people its a 396
Who knows unless ur racing in ci limited class n if u are I doubt if you are gonna win any races with those heads anyway.
Get some good heads with 2.02 valves as was suggested in the prvious post
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72
If budget is tight why are you planning to build 2 engines? Why do you want a 302? Why waste the time and money on those heads? None of that makes sense.

If you want to do it right forget the 302 idea. Spend money on building a reliable 350 short block and keep an eye out for 200-220cc heads that you can get a deal on. Scrap the 416's. The cost of new valves and a valve job will cover half of a good set of heads so why waste it on 416's? For moving that heavy car you'll need all the power you can get so don't waste your time chasing less cubic inches.
Sorry i forgot to put this in in my previous post
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:51 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigford99
the main reason I'm buildng the first motor is because I have most of that stuff laying around already. I also want to build the first 350 to get the car running this season. I have all the machines to rework the heads and to do valvejobs with. also, I'm not dead set on a 302, I wanted to build one so I could say the ford had a 302 in it.
If its laying around try to sell it or just scrap it. Owning it does not make it better. 416's need a LOT of work to even be a decent street head and will never compete with a good aftermarket 220cc head. Your next issue would be fuel. A 350 with 10:1 compression and large port bowtie vortecs will make more power on pump fuel that you 416 heads ever could on race gas. If you go through even 50gallons of fuel you lost more money right there.

If you wanted a 350hp street engine the 416's can work if you want to go racing you need race parts.

If you do go the 416 route only go with larger valves after extensive porting, fill in the exhaust "y" on the center cylinders, and put as little money as possible into the engine. Keep your cam below 220 degrees run an RPM intake and a 4,000 or so stall.
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Old 03-11-2012, 05:06 PM
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I agree the heads ( 416 / 305 ) . What type of racing are you doing ? If it is a bracket car why the E85? I would recomend pump gas . If an index car you will need heads anyway , or will have to gut the bird to get light . The SBC ina Fox is a great drag racing platform , if thats what your doing . I did a 383 in a 88 GT with good luck .
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:26 PM
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I will be bracket racing with it. Yes it'll be a SBC in a foxbody. E85 is to be able to run the higher compression with those heads and not have to worry about pinging. I know there are plenty of better options out there, but this is what I have to work with.

The 302 is in the future, I'm not concerned about that motor at all. I know the car will need to be much lighter, and it'll have to be rev'd very high. This car will in no way be streetable. I'm simply looking to get this car running. Next winter, I will be completely rebuilding the car and strip the thing out.
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Old 03-11-2012, 11:17 PM
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Sounds like a plan . Are you using the K-member or motor plates . Sounds like a cool project . Post some pics up .
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Old 03-11-2012, 11:43 PM
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I'll be using a k member for the swap. I will be staring work on it after we get the 406 sbc pinto outta the garage
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Old 03-12-2012, 12:10 AM
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http://youtu.be/mme9z3-sFYs
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Old 03-12-2012, 03:04 AM
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E85 is not part of "cheap"

The E85 carbs costs money.

build a 350 with a 10.5:1 cr and run premium pump gas.

the #416's will work well if they are fully ported. Fully being the key word. a half effort with get you a half baked result.
Use a felpro 1205 gasket as a guide. The meat and potatoes is deep in the ports.

1.94x 1.60 valves best. Blocking the egr passages in the exhaust ports is cool.

use a flat top piston. CC the heads when done to get the chamber volume to get the cr right.
deck the block and or use a thin shim head gasket.

Isky cam #201027 Isky 235D valve springs.
1.5 or 1.6 rockers.

rpm or vic JR manifold or same , 750cfm DP carb. headers.

street -strip:

4.56:1 gears (26" tall slicks) 10" 3500++ stall


I fully do up a set of 416 heads for less than $500 tax included.
400hp capable.


Your 302 idea is a really bad idea.

search my old posts on doing up the 416 head.
I don't bother with screw in studs and guide plates. I drill and roll pin the stock studs. Shorten the valve guide boss for high lift and seals.
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Old 03-12-2012, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
I fully do up a set of 416 heads for less than $500 tax included.
400hp capable.
I drill and roll pin the stock studs. Shorten the valve guide boss for high lift and seals.
In addition to pinned studs and shortened guide bosses, does this include:

guides replaced/relined
3-angle valve job
porting, if so to what extent (full runners, bowl only, etc.)
enlarging the intake seats for 1.94" intakes
valves
springs
retainers/locks

What does the shipping cost from KY to Canada and back?
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
In addition to pinned studs and shortened guide bosses, does this include:

guides replaced/relined
3-angle valve job
porting, if so to what extent (full runners, bowl only, etc.) Yes full effort porting
enlarging the intake seats for 1.94" intakes Yes 1.94x 1.60 competition valve job w 30deg back cut added to the valves

valves Yes new Manley 1.94x 1.60
springs Yes new 1.26" diameter .550" lift ( Isky, Pioneer, Lunati , Summit)

retainers/locks I reused good stock retainers, new locks seals supplied by the machinist inc in valve job .

What does the shipping cost from KY to Canada and back?
The guides were fine. They were barley worn. I knurled them. I wanted generous valve guide clearance. (Nitrous)

I don't sell cylinder heads
I am telling you what it cost me to do my ported 305 heads.

i have done many sets of these heads. I have only had to pay to get 1 ( busted) guide replaced

You for got milling the decks. Yes a .005" to .010" clean up cut is included in the machining cost.

Further max milling to reduce the chambers may/ will cost a bit more labour
its the maching set up time you are paying for.

I do all my own precision measuring, porting work, most of the mods, cleaning and final assembly. I give my machinist a machining check list on paper with the heads. He gives me his estimate. I ok the job.

I keep it real simple and easy for him on these budget heads.

I don;t make him clean it, check it , calculate it or guarantee it.
I do all that my self. (He always tank cleans them anyways LOL)

If your machinist has to hold your hand etc etc you are going to pay for that.

You save money by doing things for yourself.

I pay my machinist to do MACHINE WORK.

He is very competitive on the work and parts prices for the parts I source from him. He knows I'm not rich. He knows he does not need to hold my hand either.

its not worth paying someone to port these heads. Get real. DIY

The last set cost my $460 CAN all cost and tax inc.
i don't sell cylinder heads. But I get more than that when I do sell off a set.

there are lots of local machine shops in Kentucky.
Find a good local shop and work with him. Don;t make him hold your hand.
Save him time and save yourself money.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 03-12-2012 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:20 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
The guides were fine. They were barley worn. I knurled them. I wanted generous valve guide clearance. (Nitrous)

I don't sell cylinder heads
I am telling you what it cost me to do my ported 305 heads.

i have done many sets of these heads. I have only had to pay to get 1 ( busted) guide replaced

You for got milling the decks. Yes a .005" to .010" clean up cut is included in the machining cost.

Further max milling to reduce the chambers may/ will cost a bit more labour

I do all my own precision measuring, porting work, most of the mods, cleaning and final assembly.

If your machinist has to hold your hand etc etc you are going to pay for that.

You save money by doing things for yourself.
its not worth paying someone to port these heads. Get real. DIY

The last set cost my $460 CAN all cost and tax inc.
i don't sell cylinder heads. But I get more than that when I do sell off a set.
So you can spend $500 for worked over POS heads or $600 for new 210 aluminum Chinese (eeeek, gasp, etc., etc.) that are in every way better? This doesn't even consider what you can find used or rebuilt locally. I have a buddy that will sell you your choice of "double humps" for $250 a set- fully rebuilt.

I went the 416 route once, and I'll never do it again. To be honest its no longer even worth rebuilding a set of Vortecs unless you're just doing a spring swap, guide work and some light porting.
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