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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2007, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambo_The_Dog
POR 15 does not contain UV protectants and cannot be left outside or used as a topcoat which is more than likely why it failed.
exactly. You did NOT follow the directions of having it top coated for UV protection, reason #1 why it's failed. Don't blame the product now. Ive used it numerous times with very good results, still looks as the day I put it on (trunk/floor pans)

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2007, 07:59 PM
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You can also try Rustmort. Great product, works like por 15
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2007, 09:05 PM
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I have a really rusty floor top/bottom and decided to try POR15. I bought some from a swap meet guy but when I got it home and tried to use it I found that it was old or had been heated or frozen. I could not get it to remix even after strirring for an hour with a drill motor. It was the silver high build stuff. Thank God he gave me my money back. Otherwise after reading these threads I doubt that I will use it.

However, I have reviewed several products and I've decided to try a rust converter product and then top coat it. So far I've tested a couple of spots with the rustoleum product and I found that it does a good job. It converts the rust to a coating and drys to a zinc like finish. It drys to a charcoal gray color and you really have to gouge at it with a screw driver to get back down through to find any rust, but I'm still unsure about using it for the whole floor. It would be a huge time saver but like others here I'm concerned about the rust coming back through. I plan to use danamat stuff on the floor inside and think I may spray the belly with a rhino liner material. I think it actually chemically changes the rust and metal by using tanic acid to convert the rust to another form that seals it from air. I'm not sure on that but I do know one thing it is nearly impossible the weld the metal after its applied.

The only place I've been able to find the Rustoleum Converter in spray cans is at the Meijers deparment stores. It costs about $6.00 a can and is really easy to use. I just knock the loose rust off with a wire wheel vaccuum the dust and wipe with damp cloth, let dry and spray.

I have also had a few parts (doors) dipped at a professional metal stripper and then black epoxy coated and that worked well too but it's expensive and I still had a lot of prep before I could primer. Even the metal stripper guy said converting the rust on the floor board and inside body panels might be a better way to go.

Again gang this is just my personal experience and I'm still pretty confused about it all.

I wish you luck.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2007, 04:59 AM
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It always amazes me! People here will spend thousands of hours and even more dollars on these cars, to make them look just right. Except that they want to cover rust! It IS RUST! No matter what you put on it, IT IS STILL RUST! The correct way to repair it is to remove it.

Take a turd. Cover it with any paint you want. It will still be a turd! I guess as long as you can't see it, it ain't there!

Aaron
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2007, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adtkart
Take a turd. Cover it with any paint you want. It will still be a turd! I guess as long as you can't see it, it ain't there!

Aaron
I agree. I just had a customer bring in a gallon of POR to put on the underside of his floors. I told him that I refused to use it. I will sand blast and epoxy it.
Bob
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2007, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitmaks
You can also try Rustmort. Great product, works like por 15
Rustmort in no way works like POR 15 and is not a paint or coating at all, it is just a thin clear (mostly water) Phosphoric acid solution VERY similar to Ospho. POR is a paint that (supposedly) covers and seals but Rustmort is a "converter" that dissolves rust and changes any remaining into a more stable form and at least, unlike POR, it attempts to rid the metal of the rust. Rustmort can not be left unprotected and in spite of what some may think it is not moisture proof and the metal will readily begin to rust if exposed to moisture. I am not plugging for Rustmort or knocking POR since IMO removing rust is the way to deal with it but I have used both products in the past (but NO MORE!) and they are in no way similar and in fact are two completely different products that work in totally different ways.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2007, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adtkart
It always amazes me! People here will spend thousands of hours and even more dollars on these cars, to make them look just right. Except that they want to cover rust! It IS RUST! No matter what you put on it, IT IS STILL RUST! The correct way to repair it is to remove it.

Take a turd. Cover it with any paint you want. It will still be a turd! I guess as long as you can't see it, it ain't there!

Aaron
LMAO! But truer words were never spoken! Spend all that money and go to a dept store and spend 6 bucks to deal with rust Fellows THINK about it a bit, there would be MILLIONS of dollars to be made with a product that really did stop rust and if such a product did exist why don't the big names in autobody products like Dupont or PPG have it? If POR, Rustmort, Rustoluem or the like really worked why is it not used by the the real pros? To quote a previous post "you really have to gouge at it with a screw driver to get back down through to find any rust" - BINGO! that says it all, THE RUST IS STILL THERE!
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2007, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
: Fellows THINK about it a bit, there would be MILLIONS of dollars to be made with a product that really did stop rust and if such a product did exist why don't the big names in autobody products like Dupont or PPG have it? If POR, Rustmort, Rustoluem or the like really worked why is it not used by the the real pros? To quote a previous post "you really have to gouge at it with a screw driver to get back down through to find any rust" - BINGO! that says it all, THE RUST IS STILL THERE!
I did a quick search and it looks like there are a number of global firms selling such products. I can only assume that a paint manufactuer like Dupont/PPG would find it dollarwsie to be counter productive selling a one step rust converter/transformer in direct competiton with their other product lines like epoxy primer.

Here's a few links for more information-
http://www.rustoleum.com/Product.asp...8&SBL=2&ddic=7
http://www.chesterton.com/products/t...t/?product=763
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/produ...id=47&plid=168
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2007, 08:53 AM
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1930, Rust converters are nothing new and have been around in one form or another for many years and they all seem to be basically a Phosphoric acid solution of one type or another, and I am quite aware that some companies like Permatex (Locktite) sell this stuff. My point is that the big names in auto body finish do not sell anything like the POR products that are intended to paint over rust and the Phosphoric acid solutions they do sell, which appear to be very similar to the rust converters, are sold as a metal prep and conditioner that is intended to etch CLEAN metal prior to priming and it is not sold as a "rust converter". I am no body pro and I want to make that clear however I found this place while researching ways to deal with tiny rust pits in my mustang doors that I could not reach to remove so I wanted to learn how the pros deal with this. I had seen all those glowing claims about POR and others and I even used POR as a rust preventer on a rust free underside that was freshly sandblasted, after doing a lot of research and some first hand testing I have since learned that epoxy would have been a heck of a lot better but my intention was never to cover rust anyway except for the tiny pits in the doors. (I ended up replacing the door skins at a cost of less than $130 for both and the rust is GONE!) The problem with products like POR is that they can't "treat" rust they can't reach like in overlapping seams and this is where the real problem is anyway, for example when I removed the door skins there was a LOT of hidden rust where the skin folded over the shell. Also there was a lot of rust behind the hinge braces inside the shell that the POR could never reach (In my case I was looking at Eastwood's "Rust Encapsulator") so if I had of used that crap even if it did take care of the pits I still would have had a very costly mess on my hands by now, rust you can reach is rust you can remove and rust you can't reach is rust that WILL get you in the end. It's your car so if you want to fall for all that advertising hype go ahead use what you like and if you want to go the "easy" way then remember covered or not the rust is STILL THERE and it will come back to haunt you, even if it takes a while you still have rusty metal under that shiny paint and is that really ok with you? Do yourself a big favor and do this right by cutting out the rust as those cover ups are a half arse approach any way you look at it and as the old saying goes "a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link" and in the chain of processes that make up that expensive paint job the covered up rust will be a weak link indeed!

Go back and re-read what Adtkart said, that pretty much sums it up.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2007, 08:25 PM
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oldred
I have cut out and removed all unstable rust. I also ground back several inches from any cut out areas to find fresh old steel so to speak. I also butt welded every inch of every seam. You may also question why I did extensive body repair before I dipped or blasted it...answer the car was so unstable... I had to in order to to find out if I could save it. This thing was really rough so I'm done with that work other than a few pit holes here and there. After having the doors dipped I know I won't go that way with the rest of the body. Heres the deal the body panels are .068" thick and the floor pan is even thicker and it's really solid now that I've fixed the heavy rot. The floor has a uniform coat of rust both sides. Now for my confusion with technology vs blasting...about a year and half ago a buddy of mine who plows snow gave me some left over rustoleum rust reformer. He uses it to keep his plows and truck frames from rotting to the ground. So I brought it home and cut off one of the worst rusty pieces I could find on my old Plymouth. It was easy to find a spot because its all old and really rusty.

I took the rusted piece of floor sprayed it with a hose and blew it off with air. After letting dry for a few days I coated it with the rust reformer. About 30 minutes later it was tacking up and tunred to a charcoal gray color. I let it dry for a few days laying in the garage window. After that I threw it outside and its been there ever since. Theres no new rust activity on the area I coated except for right at the edge line. Again you can scrape it with a screw driver and get down to some rust but once it's coated and left undisturbed it works great. I have also tested other areas on my trailer and the hot rod each spot is holding up with no change in the coating. I still haven't made up my mind yet but after reading all these threads I have a lot to think about. I agree its kinda creepy thinking about all that rust just a few mills under the surface but I guess if you don't scrape at it with a screw driver it woud be fine...all kidding side I'll probably blast it and expoxy but I hate not taking advantage of good science and technology.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2007, 09:42 PM
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The good science and technology in this stuff is nothing new it's been around for years and basically it's phosphoric acid. The idea is that the phosphoric acid will dissolve the rust and convert what's left into a more stable compound and leave a phosphate coating on the metal. The phosphate coating will inhibit further rusting but in most cases it will not completely stop well developed rust but it works pretty good on flash rusting and light surface rust. If you have rust that is pitting, scaling or just very heavy surface rust then you really do need to remove it by some means as these rust converters may slow it somewhat but they will not stop it. Also if there are any seams involved nothing you brush or spray on is going to somehow creep under those seams to do anything about rust there. As I said I found this place researching ways to deal with rust, in my case very light rust, and I saw all those "magic" cures that seemed to be the easy answer but after talking to the real pros about this and doing some testing on my own I can see now that none of them really work as claimed. I am just doing this as a hobby so my opinion is not from a professional level but if you will look past the ad hype and research this thing I think you will find that the real pros will tell you about the same thing.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2007, 10:57 PM
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Rust Bullet, Zero Rust, Por-15 or Rassonil?

Anyone ever used Rassonil? Wondering how it holds up to the others. I posed this question to a NASA chemical engineer: If the rusted metal is coated, that is deprived of oxygen, will the rust contiue to spread? He said "No" because if an electron moved to another steel molecule [creating rust], then the first molecule could no longer be rust. So, I totally agree with SHINE, but it looks like the key is in getting a coating to actually bond to the metal to block any oxygen. Evidentally easier said than done.
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Old 12-24-2007, 05:31 AM
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HRC, Again even if there was such a product that would stop rust completely it can not stop rust it can't reach! NO product will somehow magically creep into overlapping seams or other areas where it can't be directly applied. The rust you can see and get to is usually not the big problem, it is the rust you can't see like in seams and hidden panels that will eventually get you. That is why it needs to be removed by cutting out rusty parts and gaining access to these areas so it will be eliminated and not just covered up to come back and spoil the job later.

If I may borrow a line from Adtkart- "You may be able to make a turd very colorful and shiny with the right paint but look at what is UNDER the paint!
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2007, 06:14 AM
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Shine you said it well. With proper prep some of these products will delay rust but in my years of car repair I have never seen anything stop it.A good epoxy primer on properly prepared metal can't be beat.
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Old 12-24-2007, 08:10 AM
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Agreed, epoxy primer on properly prepared metal will be the best most durable finish (topcoated of course) that you could have. Those rust convertors do convert rust but what if the rust doesn't stay bonded to the panel. Also say you do use epoxy over a little rust that you can't completely get rid of it will slow rust down too. Iron oxide takes oxygen to grow and sealed up with epoxy and topcoat it cannot get oxygen.
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