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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 07-08-2010, 06:53 PM
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ya well like I've said on other threads as much as I like things all timed to he11 and back I got a dog in this race. He's called my builder, and he barks real loud and mean when I talk timing numbers over 38. Some of his barks sound a lot like " You'll be picking up all the cost if you drill a slug you stund pr1ck" So thats kinda why I curl up on the porch and avoid some of the numbers I'd like to try. Thankyou all though for mentally getting me back up to speed as to all the details. Its been a long time and way too many gin and tonics, well lean on the tonic

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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 07-08-2010, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sooper
ya well like I've said on other threads as much as I like things all timed to he11 and back I got a dog in this race. He's called my builder, and he barks real loud and mean when I talk timing numbers over 38. Some of his barks sound a lot like " You'll be picking up all the cost if you drill a slug you stund pr1ck" So thats kinda why I curl up on the porch and avoid some of the numbers I'd like to try. Thankyou all though for mentally getting me back up to speed as to all the details. Its been a long time and way too many gin and tonics, well lean on the tonic
If your guy has the idea that the timing would be there while your foot was in it, I can see his point.

But as has been said, when the engine is under a load, the vacuum drops. When the vacuum drops, the spring in the vacuum advance causes the advance to vanish, until you let off and the vacuum rises again.

There are adjustable vacuum advance units that will prevent advance from being applied until you want it, and only as much (in degrees) that you want to allow- usually 10 to 12 degrees is all that's needed in a high performance timing curve.

It will clean up any poor idle characteristics, it allows the curb idle screw to be closed (if using manifold vacuum, this can help matters if the transfer slot is over exposed), it will give a smoother, cooler cruise and (not that it matters) gives better mileage. Ported or manifold will both do all this w/the exception pointed out above about the transfer slot exposure- that has to be manifold vacuum. Otherwise either works equally well.

But the point is- it WORKS!
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  #93 (permalink)  
Old 07-08-2010, 07:32 PM
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You've talked me into it .

cobalt327 . With all the benefits you have sited of using manifold advance , you have talked me into going back to using it . Yes , I said back to using it . It was the way I set up everything back in the 70's . Then got away from playing with cars in 1985 . Now I have my T-bucket and am having fun with it . And as much as I cruise around . 2600 mi. since 4/01/2010 , fuel mileage is a factor on disability income . Thanks for keeping the thread going . BTW I had gained 2 mpg on my '72 Pontiac Lemans by doing nothing more than switching from ported to manifold advance . But that was 37 yrs ago , and I have slept since then and I guess I forgot .

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Old 07-08-2010, 08:00 PM
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Big, it's worth a try, I believe.

Some additional info and part numbers:

If needed, there are adjustable vacuum cans like the ACCEL #31035. It's an adjustable vacuum advance can for the GM HEI that allows infinite adjustment to BOTH the amount and rate of advance. Comes w/instructions and tool.

If you find the can is OK but has too much advance, you will need to physically limit the vac can's travel w/a VACUUM ADVANCE LIMITER PLATE- Crane #99619-1; #99619-1 INSTRUCTIONS.

If you're unsure, or just want to check the accuracy of the tab/mark for TDC, DETERMINE TDC will help you to see for yourself.

You can use MAKE A TIMING TAPE for instructions on making a temporary timing tape to use to check/set the total advance if you don't have a dial back timing light. Before removing the tape, permanently mark the damper w/the total advance position and any other positions you want.

Usually 10-14 degrees of vacuum advance is enough to bring things around nicely. You don't want too much, so this is a good starting point- some OEM vacuum advance cans have a lot more- they can still be used by limiting the travel of the rod w/the Crane limiter plate, above.

When you feel like it, give us the build details of your engine and gears, weight, etc. and I'm sure we can get you within range.
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  #95 (permalink)  
Old 07-09-2010, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
Big, it's worth a try, I believe.

Some additional info and part numbers:

If needed, there are adjustable vacuum cans like the ACCEL #31035. It's an adjustable vacuum advance can for the GM HEI that allows infinite adjustment to BOTH the amount and rate of advance. Comes w/instructions and tool.

If you find the can is OK but has too much advance, you will need to physically limit the vac can's travel w/a VACUUM ADVANCE LIMITER PLATE- Crane #99619-1; #99619-1 INSTRUCTIONS.

If you're unsure, or just want to check the accuracy of the tab/mark for TDC, DETERMINE TDC will help you to see for yourself.

You can use MAKE A TIMING TAPE for instructions on making a temporary timing tape to use to check/set the total advance if you don't have a dial back timing light. Before removing the tape, permanently mark the damper w/the total advance position and any other positions you want.

Usually 10-14 degrees of vacuum advance is enough to bring things around nicely. You don't want too much, so this is a good starting point- some OEM vacuum advance cans have a lot more- they can still be used by limiting the travel of the rod w/the Crane limiter plate, above.

When you feel like it, give us the build details of your engine and gears, weight, etc. and I'm sure we can get you within range.
Sounds great cobalt ... thanks ! 5'11"-300 lb-56"chest-18-1/2" biceps . Yup. I guess Big fits me .LOL
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  #96 (permalink)  
Old 07-09-2010, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
[b]ACCEL #31035
As usual. "NOT SHIPPED TO CANADUH" Anyone on here wanta sell/ship one to this boy?

A country that souly operates on the consumption of nothing more than K.D. and molsons
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  #97 (permalink)  
Old 07-09-2010, 12:10 PM
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sooper,
cruise timing and mpg:
the carb has a fuel feed amount curve designed in,,, which operates/changes based on the Hg present,,, (the higher the Hg is at cruise the less fuel will be fed so mpg goes up)....

the amount of total timing a car does "need" (key word) to attain the highest Hg possible while at steady cruise,,,(so the carb does then feed least amount of gas possible constantly),,,depends on
tq power at the wheels to weight ratio "at" cruise rpms (and where are you on the globe type stuff)...

for you to determine how close to optimum possible Hg/constant cruise rpms/best hwy mpg are you on mech only,,, all you need to do is:

motor warmed up read the Hg in park at constant actual cruise rpms=motor Hg with "no load" (say it is 20Hg at 3k=60mph)
{easy way=just turn in the linkage idle rpms screw to add rpms so you can go back and check rpms at the tach on the dash}

now hook up the gage with a long hose and read the actual "with load" Hg on a level road/very steady pedal/on a calm day at 60mph 3k while driving...

very likely it will (it should!!) read 18Hg+ with your car power/weight/timing combo....

within reason/for all practical purposes your carb is metering the least amount of fuel it can (your at the lowest end of the metering curve for most carbs) so your cruise mpg won't improve with more timing from a vac unit ....

because of your way beyond practical for street rpms cent all in rpms,,,it would be darn near impossible to get a vac unit and carb metering to work together...

what is your warmed up motor idle rpms and Hg reading in drive???

does your builder know you are running those extremely light springs,,,he need to!!!

..........................
some general tweek info for cruise vac tuning for folk's who do alot of hwy miles per year:
ideal:
you only want to have "enough" total timing to get to that highest under load Hg cruise reading...
that can be anywhere from none to 52 depending on the car/motor combo and base/cent at cruise rpms...

light it with more than enough timing than needed for highest Hg just increases the counter-rotational forces from the pressure build period when the piston is still moving up toward tdc...

illustration?:
there are so darn many different range vac units (a little to alot) on Mr Gobles list that are listed by car model specific to best match "that" car weight/power and gearing differences...

the base and cent plus XX vac added actual total "at cruise rpms" is dialed in to the minimum needed vac added to be at highest cruise Hg you can get for that particular car model combo...

ONLY in the most general and roughest ballpark terms possible,,,each additional cruise Hg is typically worth 2-3 mpg more on a stock or very mild motor...

if your hot rod no load cruise rpms reading is say 20Hg and the loaded reading from a test drive is say 15Hg,,,
(to see if a different range or adjustable vac unit is going to help mpg)....
pad and pencil write down where you are at with your current best performance base setting...
now try a at cruise rpm test drive changing just the base timing (DO try both more and less base) to see if the gage cruise Hg does improve (with either more or less total timing from changing the base,,,it's almost flip a coin for which way helps)...

how many base degrees difference/change helped tells you how many more or less degrees you want in the vac unit added at cruise when you set the base back to it's performance (original setting)...

LOL,,,hot rod and mpg is almost a oxymoron but "honey I gotta go tune the cruise Hg on my car" is a good excuse to escape to the garage...

PS: 60mph and above is usually when wind resistance can have a dramatic impact on cruise Hg...
way common to see 20hg at 60mph,,, 18Hg at 70 and only 15Hg at 73-75mph no matter what the timing total....

edit:
carbed/dist car,,,vac gage on the dash permanent is a smart smart move...

they were a oem option "back in the day",,, to serve as a excellent/comprehensive/real time "check engine light" immediate warning (bouncing needle or Hg reference value change will happen with just a minor motor fault)....
and to help train your right foot to keep the Hg high while accelerating (had a "economy" label band from about 12Hg to 20Hg=lean on the carb curve)....
and for under load testing/tuning....

$40? auto gauge pic of the unit in my car attached....

if ya got a vac gage,,,,put it to work full time!!!!
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  #98 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2010, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
sooper,
cruise timing and mpg:
the carb has a fuel feed amount curve designed in,,, which operates/changes based on the Hg present,,, (the higher the Hg is at cruise the less fuel will be fed so mpg goes up)....

the amount of total timing a car does "need" (key word) to attain the highest Hg possible while at steady cruise,,,(so the carb does then feed least amount of gas possible constantly),,,depends on
tq power at the wheels to weight ratio "at" cruise rpms (and where are you on the globe type stuff)...

for you to determine how close to optimum possible Hg/constant cruise rpms/best hwy mpg are you on mech only,,, all you need to do is:

motor warmed up read the Hg in park at constant actual cruise rpms=motor Hg with "no load" (say it is 20Hg at 3k=60mph)
{easy way=just turn in the linkage idle rpms screw to add rpms so you can go back and check rpms at the tach on the dash}

now hook up the gage with a long hose and read the actual "with load" Hg on a level road/very steady pedal/on a calm day at 60mph 3k while driving...

very likely it will (it should!!) read 18Hg+ with your car power/weight/timing combo....

within reason/for all practical purposes your carb is metering the least amount of fuel it can (your at the lowest end of the metering curve for most carbs) so your cruise mpg won't improve with more timing from a vac unit ....

because of your way beyond practical for street rpms cent all in rpms,,,it would be darn near impossible to get a vac unit and carb metering to work together...

what is your warmed up motor idle rpms and Hg reading in drive???

does your builder know you are running those extremely light springs,,,he need to!!!

..........................
some general tweek info for cruise vac tuning for folk's who do alot of hwy miles per year:
ideal:
you only want to have "enough" total timing to get to that highest under load Hg cruise reading...
that can be anywhere from none to 52 depending on the car/motor combo and base/cent at cruise rpms...

light it with more than enough timing than needed for highest Hg just increases the counter-rotational forces from the pressure build period when the piston is still moving up toward tdc...

illustration?:
there are so darn many different range vac units (a little to alot) on Mr Gobles list that are listed by car model specific to best match "that" car weight/power and gearing differences...

the base and cent plus XX vac added actual total "at cruise rpms" is dialed in to the minimum needed vac added to be at highest cruise Hg you can get for that particular car model combo...

ONLY in the most general and roughest ballpark terms possible,,,each additional cruise Hg is typically worth 2-3 mpg more on a stock or very mild motor...

if your hot rod no load cruise rpms reading is say 20Hg and the loaded reading from a test drive is say 15Hg,,,
(to see if a different range or adjustable vac unit is going to help mpg)....
pad and pencil write down where you are at with your current best performance base setting...
now try a at cruise rpm test drive changing just the base timing (DO try both more and less base) to see if the gage cruise Hg does improve (with either more or less total timing from changing the base,,,it's almost flip a coin for which way helps)...

how many base degrees difference/change helped tells you how many more or less degrees you want in the vac unit added at cruise when you set the base back to it's performance (original setting)...

LOL,,,hot rod and mpg is almost a oxymoron but "honey I gotta go tune the cruise Hg on my car" is a good excuse to escape to the garage...

PS: 60mph and above is usually when wind resistance can have a dramatic impact on cruise Hg...
way common to see 20hg at 60mph,,, 18Hg at 70 and only 15Hg at 73-75mph no matter what the timing total....

edit:
carbed/dist car,,,vac gage on the dash permanent is a smart smart move...

they were a oem option "back in the day",,, to serve as a excellent/comprehensive/real time "check engine light" immediate warning (bouncing needle or Hg reference value change will happen with just a minor motor fault)....
and to help train your right foot to keep the Hg high while accelerating (had a "economy" label band from about 12Hg to 20Hg=lean on the carb curve)....
and for under load testing/tuning....

$40? auto gauge pic of the unit in my car attached....

if ya got a vac gage,,,,put it to work full time!!!!
That's an awesome setup! I've got mine coming in through the window and I have to hold it up while I drive. I might have to look into getting one of these. All the one's Ive seen have a boost side to them which would look cheezy IMO.

PS The comment posted above earlier was done by a "friend" that I let use my computer. He thought it was so funny.
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  #99 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2010, 09:16 AM
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Why are ya'll still responding to this thread? IT'S 7 YEARS OLD!!!!
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  #100 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2010, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdog7373
Why are ya'll still responding to this thread? IT'S 7 YEARS OLD!!!!
The deal on that is, if there's new or additional information that can be added to an existing thread- it is better to do THAT, rather than start yet another thread on the same subject. This cuts down on all the hits that come up doing a search. At least that's how I see it. YMMV.
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  #101 (permalink)  
Old 07-21-2010, 08:32 AM
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mad dog,,,
yup, agree with cobalt...
PLUS,,, this topic (manifold versus ported) comes up in/during many different subjects new thread's discussions..

adding more/better topic specific info like this "ported versus manifold" road test article:

http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...uum_curve.html

ALL in one thread,,,,allows you to add a link to this thread and say "read this"...

LOL,,
everything anyone could ever want to know "is" already on this board server,,,problem is it is all so darn scattered/buried/fragmented...
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  #102 (permalink)  
Old 07-21-2010, 09:59 AM
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Old thread but still pertinent. This is obviously a controversial subject! Another recommended reference to read; get a dopy of Doc Jacobs book on automotive ignitions. His main purpose is of course to sell his ignition modules, spark plugs, wires etc., but this book only spends a few pages extolling the wonders of his stuff. The majority of the book concentrates on basic ignition theory. Goes into great detail on distributor, wire, plug, coil, vacuum & mechanical advance theory. Also has a great chapter on how to scientifically tune mechanical and vacuum advance in the car. I think it is out of print but Amazon list used copies.

Oh, and he makes a great scientific case for full manifold vaccum advance.
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  #103 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2010, 01:39 PM
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Kiss

Yes, keep it simple stud!

Vacuum advances that receive manifold vacuum are generally due to smog control, advance the timing @ idle, burn the fuel more completely, less co. Unfortunately, combined with improperly over advanced base ignition timing (which I KNOW none of you would ever do!), this can cause a rough idle and an increase in both HC and NOx emissions. On the plus side, the increase in engine rpm @ idle will allow you to reduce the carb idle stop adjustment to bring the idle back to spec. and lower the chance of engine run on when shutting the engine off.
Ported vacuum is a whole different animal and has been in use long before emissions controls were ever conceived. A carburetor works because of pressure lower than atmospheric pressure (vacuum, as we call it). When the low pressure area is below the throttle plates (this only applies to carbureted engines), fuel/air mixtures comes from the idle ports, below the throttle plates (closed). As the throttle is opened, the low pressure area moves upward, above the throttle plates and less fuel is drawn from the idle ports and more from the off idle ports located in the "throat" (venturi) of the carburetor. Dependent on specific carburetor design, at this point the fuel mixture tends to become leaner than idle or wider throttle operation.
A lean fuel mixture takes longer, relatively speaking, to ionize the fuel molecules (line them up so they can conduct electricity across the spark plug gap). Therefore the spark must be started earlier in the compression stroke (yes, Virginia, the spark is started during the compression stroke (btdc)) so that the fuel charge in the cylinder reaches peak combustion pressure at the appropriate position (atdc) in the power stroke to achieve maximum power output and fuel efficiency. That is why the spark is typically advanced in coordination with the "lean spot" in the throttle position usually from just above idle to about half throttle, dependent upon carb design, engine rpm, and load.
I hope this review of the basics has been helpful and when you apply vacuum to the advance control will really depend on what you're trying to achieve, whether it be smog compliance, or proper engine operation, both of which in the past have seemed to be some what contradictory. Thank God for computer engine control and advanced technology that have all but eliminated problems of this nature
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  #104 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2010, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
A lean fuel mixture takes longer, relatively speaking, to ionize the fuel molecules (line them up so they can conduct electricity across the spark plug gap).
Huh??
-----
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:32 PM
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RE:Huh?

I can't type any slower, so I'll try to expand upon the concept, which I thought was relatively simple:

When a fuel mixture is "rich", there are more fuel molecules in the combustion chamber, so they are closer together, more concentrated. When a fuel mixture is "lean" there are fewer fuel molecules in the same size combustion chamber, less concentrated, so they are farther apart, than when the mixture is rich. In order for electricity (spark) to travel, there has to be a complete circuit, and that circuit is created between the center electrode of the spark plug and the ground electrode when the electricity attempts to find a path to ground. The electricity creates this path by ionizing (lining up ) the fuel molecules.

The further apart the molecules are, the longer it takes to get enough of them lined up between the electrodes for the spark (electricity) to jump from one molecule to the next until it reaches the nearest ground (ground electrode). This is why the spark must be initiated sooner (by the vacuum advance control), so that the spark will be complete early enough for the burning of the fuel in the cylinder to be complete by the time the piston is in an appropriate position in the cylinder on the power (downward) stroke to best use the maximum power generated by the burning fuel.

Let's try an analogy here: You want all your friends (all 3 of them) to show up at your house for the kick off and the game begins at 2pm you will need to call them by a certain time to get to your house on time. If your friends all live in the same city (Beverly Hills, rich) you can probably call them an hour or so before the game and expect them to show up on time, provided they have already purchased beer. However, if your friends live at the far corners of San Bernardino County (lean, also poor), you may have to call them a day in advance in order for them to show up on time for the kick off (providing they have cars that run at all). The analogy here of course is that your friends are the fuel molecules, your call to them is the electricity trying to cross the spark plug gap, getting them lined up on the sofa to watch the football game is the ionization process, and when specifically you call them to get there on time is like the vacuum advance either starting the spark sooner or not relative to their distance from the spark plug gap (the sofa) to see the kick off (combustion). Get it?
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