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  #106 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2010, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeguitar
I can't type any slower, so I'll try to expand upon the concept, which I thought was relatively simple:

When a fuel mixture is "rich", there are more fuel molecules in the combustion chamber, so they are closer together, more concentrated. When a fuel mixture is "lean" there are fewer fuel molecules in the same size combustion chamber, less concentrated, so they are farther apart, than when the mixture is rich. In order for electricity (spark) to travel, there has to be a complete circuit, and that circuit is created between the center electrode of the spark plug and the ground electrode when the electricity attempts to find a path to ground. The electricity creates this path by ionizing (lining up ) the fuel molecules.

The further apart the molecules are, the longer it takes to get enough of them lined up between the electrodes for the spark (electricity) to jump from one molecule to the next until it reaches the nearest ground (ground electrode). This is why the spark must be initiated sooner (by the vacuum advance control), so that the spark will be complete early enough for the burning of the fuel in the cylinder to be complete by the time the piston is in an appropriate position in the cylinder on the power (downward) stroke to best use the maximum power generated by the burning fuel.
WOAH, what? I dont know about your cars but mine dont require much "electronics" to explode my gas. My cars use a SPARK to create a "flame" which then ignites my lean or rich mixtures to BURN my gas. No molecule alignment as far as I understand it. I can even remove my spark plug and watch the SPARK create a little "arc", or "flame" in open air with no gas molecules anywhere to be found.

Lean and rich mixtures need varying timing because of how FAST or SLOW they burn due to the air/fuel ratio, theres no electricity what so ever except the spark itself. Otherwise, how does electricity explain vehicles that are way out of tune and continue to run after the ignition is turned off ? (they do so because of compression, heat, wrong gas etc....but no spark at all. Dieseling?)

Sorry to sound rude but the electrical theory is a real eye opener for me

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  #107 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2010, 07:54 PM
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Joe, you posit an interesting scenario. If I follow you correctly, if there are not enough fuel molecules to complete the spark circuit, then there will be no spark.

In my experience, sometimes to determine if I have a fault in the ignition spark, I remove the plug from the cylinder, attach the spark plug wire in question to the plug, then hold the plug against the case of the engine and watch for spark. If the system is performing adequately, I will see a spark, in the complete absence of fuel. So in my simple mind I do not follow your explanation but I'm certainly capable of understanding the issue and diving in a little deeper if you care to.
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  #108 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2010, 07:57 PM
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Hey Bubba, we were thinking alike and typing it at the same time. Should have waited another minute as your post says it better.
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  #109 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2010, 08:06 PM
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Sounds to me like Joe is trying to impress us all by using a lot of words to explain a principle which is in error right from the start . Fuel + air in correct ratio + something to ignite it whether it be heat from compression (as in a diesel engine) or spark from a spark plug = explosion aka combustion . Dang the lining up molecules .
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  #110 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2010, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
The further apart the molecules are, the longer it takes to get enough of them lined up between the electrodes for the spark (electricity) to jump from one molecule to the next...
I suppose this is why we all need a magnet on our fuel lines- to line up them molecules!
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  #111 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2010, 08:16 PM
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Well, I'm not ready to throw the tomato at Joe, at least yet anyway. There is a relationship between ionization (as Joe explains it) and the conduction of electricity. I am wondering if the variable here would be resistance. Perhaps the presence of fuel molecules varies the resistance to fire the plug - if so then I could possibly see where this would affect timing, especially at high RPMs - by how much I don't know. But I'm just wondering out loud here. However, there is no doubt in my mind that a plug in a normally functioning ignition system will fire regardless of the presence of fuel. I would like to hear more from Joe on the subject.
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  #112 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2010, 08:27 PM
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Resistance schmistance, you could probably fill the cylinder until the plug is under water (I mean fuel) and still get a spark.

No doubt theres some electrical properties to the fuel mixtures but as far as the combustion engine goes I dont think its having any effect. Im a little saddened that this is being discussed in the "port or full time" arguments thread because thats an issue everyone questions at one time.
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  #113 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2010, 08:32 PM
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I am with ya there bubba . Sure to confuse someone just wanting to look up the original thread and then it gets into all of this. What say we just quit now, and try to be constructive.
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  #114 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2010, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbahotep
Im a little saddened that this is being discussed in the "port or full time" arguments thread...
And I agree 100%. This thread had been fairly on target, AFA content and I apologize for responding in the first place. I would suggest a separate thread be started on this new subject.
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  #115 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2010, 09:25 PM
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Yeah, I'll throw the tomato at "Joeguitar". The reason being is the first line in his ridiculous post:

"Vacuum advances that receive manifold vacuum are generally due to smog control"

Totally opposite of what is true. Ported vacuum is the child of necessity when dealing with smog controls and ultra lean mixtures. The rest of his posts were just as unreadable due to the lack of usable information. But then again, maybe the molecules of my pc screen just weren't ionized enough to make sendse of them.
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  #116 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2010, 11:03 PM
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Basics!

I don't know where to begin! I have never quite encountered so much "resistance" to commonly known basic automotive principles. First, I'm going to have to ask the objecters to open their minds, and let their egos go! I have been an auto mechanic for 35 years, and I am an ASE Master Certified Technician.

To Bubbahotep:I never said your car require "electronics" to "explode" your gas. If you knew any better you would understand that gas does NOT explode, it burns. Your cars do NOT use spark to create a flame, it is, in fact the release of energy when the molecules exchange ions (ionization) better known as electrical current and therefore cause a chain reaction of the relatively unstable hydrocarbon molecules, which was woefully describe by "Bubba" as an explosion.

And you're right, you can remove a spark plug, and create a little arc, but it's not a flame. What you are observing is the IONIZATION of the oxygen molecules (O2) in our atmosphere (21% oxygen, 71% nitrogen, and the rest ares misc. gases which are most likely Bubba's methane expulsions) and the resultant exchange of ions along that path of ionized O2 molecules. What you refer to as an arc that you see is actually the result of the energy being released when electricity (exchange of ions, again ionization) occurs. If there were no oxygen molecules available (or other reactive molecules) the electricity could not travel. You see it's not necessarily "gas" molecules that are necessary for ionization, just molecules that are willing to exchange ions.

You are furthermore correct in saying that it takes longer to burn a lean fuel mixture than a rich mixture, indeed. However the speed at which combustion works to cause reaction between molecules as compared to ionization of molecules in the plug gap so the spark (arc, electricity, whatever) occurs is the difference between the speed of a glacier and a 'Cuda with a 426" hemi. (the glacier being the ionization and the 'Cuda being the actual burn of the fuel charge). The actual act of getting the arc across the gap of the plug is SO much slower that it is in fact the culprit that requires the advance in the spark timing effected by the the vacuum advance control.

Yes, electrical "theory" is a real eye opener and is in fact, a fact, not a theory, and it's a little tough to follow sometimes. I hope I can explain this in terms that will allow you to see how it actually works, I'm really not making this **** up!

To Cucumber1949: Thanks for your open mind, you are correct, no molecules, no electrical current. They don't necessarily have to be fuel molecules, they can be, as I mentioned above, any kind of reactive molecule, especially an incredibly unstable molecule as oxygen. Please don't ask me to write a paper on diatomic molecules such as oxygen and hydrogen here, it could go on forever. But this is why you are able to observe an arc in a relatively friendly environment for electron transfer, where as in a compressed environment things work a little differently, and again I just don't have the time to get into this concept either.

To Adantesser: Let me be perfectly clear about this first issue: I don't give a rat's *** about impressing anyone. I merely started out to explain the various conditions under which a vacuum advance might be used, as well as how and why. The second issue is this: Just because you don't yet understand what I'm saying, doesn't mean that the "principle" (pretty big word for you, eh?) is "in error". Do you automatically assume that everything that occurs in your life that you don't understand is in error? Let me offer a scenario: I understand the principles of not only basic electron theory, but in fact I understand, as well, the principles of complex electrical circuits, not only in the automotive field, but in the the computer field. Can you give a detailed explanation of computer gates, binary code, computer machine language, and the resultant operations inside a computer that allows you to watch porn on the internet? I can. Since (I'm assuming) that you can not explain it, you don't understand it, and therefore are computers in error? Well, they work, most of the time when someone isn't screwing with them. Perhaps not the best analogy, but I think you get my point.

To Cobalt327: You are correct, the molecules line up (exchange ions) and the resultant energy (electricity) occurs. But please don't tell me you still believe that cow magnets on the fuel line actually work! I promise you I can explain why they don't, but I have to get to bed some time tonight.

Back to Cucumber: You are right! Refer to OHM's law (look it up if you need to), where amperage is constant, a change in resistance has a direct effect on voltage. If the resistance increases, the amount of voltage required to overcome that resistance increases as well. That is why, for those of you who are well acquainted with the pattern on an oscilloscope, when there is a lean fuel mixture in a cylinder, you will see a higher voltage spike on that cylinder, because it requires more voltage to overcome that resistance. This effect can also be observed in a cylinder that has lower compression than the other cylinder cylinders. The higher the compression in a cylinder, the closer together the molecules are(less resistance), and less voltage is required to ionize them. By the way, the the less voltage required, the less TIME it takes for the coil to build enough current to to overcome this resistance (see where I'm going?). Conversely, the lower the compression, the further apart the molecules are (more resistance), and more voltage is required to ionize them. And... the more voltage required, the more time it takes for the coil to build enough current to overcome this resistance. Is this getting tiresome yet?
HOWEVER! Your mention of engine rpm's is related, but not relevant. As we were discussing the involvement of the vacuum advance's role in getting the spark to occur at the correct time with respect the effect of lean fuel mixture, the centrifugal advance mechanism is responsible for compensating for engine speed by advancing the timing concurrently, to a point with respect to increases in rpm.
Again, yes the presence of fuel molecules is not necessary for ionization, whether the plug is in or out of the cylinder. We need only reactive molecules to be present for current flow. exchange of ions, voltage, whatever you want to call it.

Back to Bubbahotep: OK, now your just being annoying. Resistance schmistance? My you ARE creative, bet the ladies love you! Yep, that's exactly the way I like to win a debate, with child's talk. OK, yes you can actually cause ionization to occur under water, or fuel for that matter (water is an excellent conductor), try throwing a plugged in radio in the bathtub next time you bath, Bubba. Would that be anytime in the next week or so? No, really, please do, that way you can observe ionization in a most personal fashion! As far as it being done under liquid fuel, yes it's possible also, yet there would be no combustion, as there would not be am ample amount of oxygen molecules to allow combustion by a long shot. The problem here in demonstrating this is that ultimately, when the electron flow leaves the liquid fuel and encounters the ever present vaporization that occurs at the edge of any amount of liquid fuel, the whole thing goes off like a bomb (in actuality, it burns, just really, really, really fast, so it seems like an explosion, when in fact it's not). I don' think too many people have survived this particular experiment, but I encourage you, Bubba, to give it your best shot.

To all: So sorry to have burdened you all in an attempt to educate you as to when, where, and how a vacuum advance should do it's job. The purpose was to help you make a good decision as to what to do, and this is ALWAYS best done when you have a good grasp on the subject matter at hand (Bubba, put that back in your pants, that's not what I meant, I said "at hand", not in hand).

Good luck to you all, I hope I have shed a little light on the subject. Bubba get a job, and quite smoking weed.
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  #117 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2010, 11:14 PM
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To cool rockin daddy

*********

deleted due to unnecessary personal attack against another board member.

Last edited by engineczar; 10-05-2010 at 12:12 PM. Reason: Violation of guidelines. Please see: general board guidelines.
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  #118 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2010, 12:49 AM
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First, I'm going to have to ask the objecters to open their minds, and let their egos go!
I suspect that your ego is the problem not there's

Quote:
To all: So sorry to have burdened you all in an attempt to educate you as to when, where, and how a vacuum advance should do it's job. The purpose was to help you make a good decision as to what to do, and this is ALWAYS best done when you have a good grasp on the subject matter at hand
Yeah right, the only burden was having to read through it all. I for one sure don't need your analytical ramblings to understand how when and were to use vacuum adv. You had some interesting points but then it all went south....

Were do you get off coming on here and ripping into respected members because you want to get some kind of scientific point across. I feel that you took offence to someone doubting your theories and you opened up with both barrels not cool,

Quote:
try throwing a plugged in radio in the bathtub next time you bath, Bubba. Would that be anytime in the next week or so? No, really, please do, that way you can observe ionization
suggesting electrocution,,,??? IMO you just crossed the line buddy. You have IONized the fact that you will be soon be forgotten around here so take your electrical solutions and shove them
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  #119 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2010, 03:11 AM
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Just the hypertensive, freaked out reply I expected. Bubba got it, you didn't. It's a shame that you don't have an above 80 IQ to recognize tongue in cheek when you read it. As far as shoving it, well you should know how, you're the master. Too bad you don't have a reason to have an ego. Maybe someday when you're a published auto tech article author you can get one. Nah! Never happen. As far as ripping into anyone, didn't happen, just your oversensitive insecurity showing it's ugly head here. Please explain to me how you judge people on a blog as respected. Do you know them personally? Know their families, character, friends, reputation, occupation. or anything else about them? I didn't think so. What's your criteria for respect? They write on the same blog as you? Big deal. I'm still trying to understand what your issue is...
oh, I get it! You're one of the ones that still thinks that magnets on the fuel line actually do something more than empty your wallet. How much did you pay for them, they're great for holding you tools in place while working under the car. Well, good luck to you, I hope you can sit back and soak all this in, I'm sure you'll tell me all about it.
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  #120 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2010, 07:19 AM
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Oh, how remiss of me not to recognize JoeGuitar's eminent qualifications. I mean, he says he is an ASE mechanic with 35 years experience. On the internet, that is pure gold. Wow, I bow down to your "superior background".

If you are a mechanic, which I really doubt, you are the type that fleeces little old ladies when they come in for a basic tune up and sell them muffler bearings. The type of shyster dealer mechanic that gives all the good mechanics out there a bad name.

Thirty five years of experience? Right. Your posting style is that of all the know it all 18 year olds who come on here with an open text book and then flame out within three posts. You might want to try reading an actual book on auto ignition instead of the latest copy of the J.C. Whitney catalog for your facts.

Please do us a favor. "published" paper on the subject. Identify yourself as the author and submit the proof that you are indeed that person. Until then, just go away. You're more full of crap than a Christmas goose.

Last edited by cool rockin daddy; 10-05-2010 at 07:26 AM.
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