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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2012, 08:11 AM
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i think we have scrared the little fella of, i guess he though he could come on here and BS his way into knowlege.

to the OP dont be afraid to ask questions, i'm sure we will be happy to help you, but my suggestion would be that you do some reading on some real boxs not magazines.

check these out, you will learn a lot.

http://www.amazon.com/David-Vizards-...3375587&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/David-Vizards-...ref=pd_sim_b_2

http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Bluepri...ref=pd_sim_b_5

http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Bluepri...ref=pd_sim_b_5

http://www.amazon.com/Chevrolet-Smal...375701&sr=1-10

http://www.amazon.com/Chevrolet-Smal...375769&sr=1-13

http://www.amazon.com/How-Build-Hors...3375816&sr=1-8

buy these books, read them. afterwards you will have a much better understanding of how things work, how they go together, and how to spot a novice.

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Old 04-02-2012, 08:54 AM
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the thing is with this build is are you trying to make a fast car or a dyno queen hp doesnt mean anything its all about torque

Torque wins races horsepower sells motors
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:26 AM
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your goal can be completed it just wont be cheap could you get more out of a 350 with that money ofcourse u can but you want the 305 so stick with it it can be done just look at your option use forced induction and build up the block

and to *************************

Last edited by 68NovaSS; 04-03-2012 at 08:32 AM. Reason: Other.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:13 AM
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would you prefer this:

get a set of domed pistons say 5cc (forged), forged rods, forged crank.
buy a set of 180cc aluminum heads with 64cc chambers, make sure they have a very thick hard deck (cause they cost less to machine) with 1.94 intake valves, send them to a very reputable head shop and have them put 2.00 int valves (larger valves would be a big help but they wont fit in the 3.766 .030 over bore with enough clearance) in and have them mill them down about .090" to get you to about 50-52cc chambers ( ) you will need to send them your single plane intake as well so that they mill it down to match the heads, also have them go in and CNC the heads to about 205-210cc and able to flow around 300cfm @ .600". buy a solid roller cam with around 250° @ .050 and around .600" lift. blueprint the bottom end to reduce everybit of friction you can (= free hp) and also have the bottom end balanced to very tight tolerances, use a good ATI damper (i would call them) have a Holley 750cfm DP carb worked with dual 50cc pumps, butterflies shaved...i would go with a thicker quench say .050" and do some serious mock up to make sure that the valves have plenty of clearnance at TDC. after all this i would take the motor to a reputable dyno shop and have them completely test and tune it. $$$$ you will likely have everybit of 8000-9000 into all this

with all this you should have a motor that will turn a 305 up to around 7800-8200 and if i had to guess it would be the low 500hp range.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2012, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my87Z
would you prefer this:

get a set of domed pistons say 5cc (forged), forged rods, forged crank.
buy a set of 180cc aluminum heads with 64cc chambers, make sure they have a very thick hard deck (cause they cost less to machine) with 1.94 intake valves, send them to a very reputable head shop and have them put 2.00 int valves (larger valves would be a big help but they wont fit in the 3.766 .030 over bore with enough clearance) in and have them mill them down about .090" to get you to about 50-52cc chambers ( ) you will need to send them your single plane intake as well so that they mill it down to match the heads, also have them go in and CNC the heads to about 205-210cc and able to flow around 300cfm @ .600". buy a solid roller cam with around 250° @ .050 and around .600" lift. blueprint the bottom end to reduce everybit of friction you can (= free hp) and also have the bottom end balanced to very tight tolerances, use a good ATI damper (i would call them) have a Holley 750cfm DP carb worked with dual 50cc pumps, butterflies shaved...i would go with a thicker quench say .050" and do some serious mock up to make sure that the valves have plenty of clearnance at TDC. after all this i would take the motor to a reputable dyno shop and have them completely test and tune it. $$$$ you will likely have everybit of 8000-9000 into all this

with all this you should have a motor that will turn a 305 up to around 7800-8200 and if i had to guess it would be the low 500hp range.
Looks like someone else has been reading magazines too...

If you're really after a 500hp 305 then clean up the ports and chambers in the heads, swap in a little bigger cam, and turbo it. Its the cheapest, most reliable, and easiest way to reach those goals. If you have a good running 305 you could do it all for about a grand and a half.
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my87Z
i think we have scrared the little fella of, i guess he though he could come on here and BS his way into knowlege.

to the OP dont be afraid to ask questions, i'm sure we will be happy to help you, but my suggestion would be that you do some reading on some real boxs not magazines.

check these out, you will learn a lot.

http://www.amazon.com/David-Vizards-...3375587&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/David-Vizards-...ref=pd_sim_b_2

http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Bluepri...ref=pd_sim_b_5

http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Bluepri...ref=pd_sim_b_5

http://www.amazon.com/Chevrolet-Smal...375701&sr=1-10

http://www.amazon.com/Chevrolet-Smal...375769&sr=1-13

http://www.amazon.com/How-Build-Hors...3375816&sr=1-8

buy these books, read them. afterwards you will have a much better understanding of how things work, how they go together, and how to spot a novice.
nope, didnt scare me away, just had to get to bed... army life, LOL.
I appreciate the links, I'll be sure to read them, and I apollogize for being a bit hostile yesterday, I am going to rework a few different part combinations, and see what people think.

THANK YOU to all who have posted so far, and i hope to get more feedback!
-Rob
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2012, 09:48 PM
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To AP, I was posting on about what I thought it would take to make a 305 turn pretty high rpm to make 500hp NA. I've never tried to build a 305 with that kind of power so I was doing some guessing but I think what I posted would be pretty accurate. I have very minimal knowledge on forced induction because I don't care for it what so ever, I guess I'm a little old school like that.
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:42 AM
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Thread has been edited to remove argumentative posts and keep it on track rather than lock it.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2012, 04:16 PM
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Okay on a serious note im gonna be finishing up my 305 build here in a couple weeks hopefully. Its a ..... lets call it a very budget friendly twin turbo junk yard project lol. I will post what kind of numbers my s10 runs with it and such. I only have maybe $750 into it between the two turbos, gaskets fresh rings and bearing.

They are some stock heads that I did a new valve job and lapped the valves. Rings gaps have been widened up enough to allow for expansion so they don't butt and crank the ring lands.

Has a $125 cam and lifter set from howards.

Im hoping for around 12-15psi and maybe 400hp. It will be a fun project and experiment and hey if it doesn't work out oh well. im having fun and learning as I go.

When you deal with engines that have smaller bores making power NA becomes harder due to valve shrouding and limited selection of cylinder heads and many other factors.... hence why im going with forced induction. You would be better off starting with a SBC 302 to prove something about displacement with its 4" bore but hey anyways good luck with what you decide and keep learning from everyone's .02.
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:36 PM
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You would be better off building a 305 with a 4" bore block. 3" stroke and .020" overbore is 305.
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raith87
Ok, before i get started, let me ensure everyone who reads this, I fully understand that i could do more with a Gen 1 SBC, an LTX or an LSX. I also know that i will probably receive several negative comments about the 305, and how it is best suited to be a boat anchor, coffee table, etc... I am, however, determined to prove that the 305 is not the junk motor that most people think it is. I have done some research, and stumbled across an article from the January 2007 issue of Popular Hotrodding on a 305 build they did (here is the link for anyone who wants to read it, http://www.popularho...ks/viewall.html ). I have based my build plans on the same basic setup they were using, with some adjustments. In the article, their final result was a 372 horsepower 305, and that was using off-the-shelf aftermarket parts.

The motor, after it is finished and dyno tested, will be going into my 1984 Recaro Edition Trans Am, backed by a Tremec T56 manual transmission.


-What I'm proposing: A 500-525 horsepower fully built Carb'ed 305. (insert snickering, laughing, and 305 bashing comments here)

-My Plan: It consists of the following parts (subject to change assuming i can find parts better suited to the end goal)

-Block: completely stock 305 iron block from my 92 Camaro.


-Rotating Assembly: New 3.48" stroke crankshaft, new 5.700" connecting rods, new flat-top pistons, all standard size, no overbore, and no upstroke.


-Heads: 185cc intake runner Vortec Heads. Heads will be milled down by approximately .030" to reduce combustion chamber size to 58cc and in conjunction to the pistons, i should be running 10.2:1 compression (roughly). They will be running 1.95" intake valves and 1.5" exhaust valves, Comp Cams Elite Race dual springs.
A word on the heads, the Vortec heads from GM have an intake flow of roughly 233 cfm, this is, proportionately speaking, the equivalent of running a set of 290+ cfm intake flow heads on a 383 small block. running the 1.95/1.5 inch valves will keep shrouding to a minimum, but still allow enough flow into the cylinders for decent power.


-Camshaft: I am going to be running a custom grind cam. 276/282 total duration, 232/238 duration at .050" lift, .492"/.492" valve lift (with 1.6:1 rocker arms the valve lift would jump to .525"/.525") I will be running Hydraulic roller lifters, and 1.5:1 full roller rocker arms.


-Intake Manifold: I will probably run either a Victor Jr. or Super Victor single plane Intake Manifold for the top end power, I have looked into both dual and single plane, and the single plane seems a better fit for the build. I am still torn on this, as I have been looking at both the Victor's and the RPM Air Gap units...


-Carburetor: Holley 770CFM Ultra Street Avenger Carb (with black anodized metering blocks of course... since its going in a black car)... Electric choke, vacuum secondaries.

now, i have a few questions of my own...I have been running scenarios through desktop dyno 2003, and I have a question about BMEP numbers... what is the BMEP range for pump gas... i have a friend who was telling me that if the BMEP was too high, the motor would grenade itself.

If anyone has any questions, comments, or any input at all, please feel free to comment!
Not without a blower or nitrous. BMEP has nothing to do with grenading the motor, it's basically a pressure efficiency measure, gas street engines run in the zone of about 8.5 to 10.5 BAR. A bar is about 14.5 psi (not 14.7) at standard temperature which doesn't exist in a running engine. It's thought of as the average cylinder pressure over the length of the stroke. Again in the real world there isn't any such thing. The pressure on the piston is a massive blast of heat and force in about the first 90 to 110 degrees of crank rotation on the power stroke, what remains of the 720 degrees in the cycle is coasting from that blast.

The problem with the 305 is that it has all the disadvantages of a long stroke, small bore engine. It has high piston speeds, high centrifugal loading at the rod to crank attachments combined with the poor breathing of a small bore diameter. At least a 350 does away with the breathing problems. A high flowing head tested on a 4 inch bore will not flow the same on a 3.73 inch bore even with the same valve sizes, not even close so forget the port volume to displacement comparisons to the 383 it's meaningless because the physics of the small bore work against the simple solution. A small displacement engine has to substitute high RPM horsepower for lower end torque. The problems of a 305 as to getting into high RPMs are a lot more difficult than the 4 inch bore 302. So if you want a small motor that goes fast; the venerable 302 with its 4 inch bore and 3 inch stroke is the way to go. Otherwise just build a 350, that at least will end up having the power of your dreams instead of becoming a technical nightmare.

Yes you can build a 500 horsepower 305 but the BMEP equations you're playing with will take you into the arena of serious power output engines like NASCAR Cup motors with BMEP's up in the range of 12 to 15 bar. This moves you out of factory 2 bolt main blocks, cast iron cranks, factory rods or even cheap 4340 rods, and certainly no hypereutectic cast pistons. This is moving into the area of Callies cranks, Dyers rods, and Mahle pistons. This quickly converts a 3000 dollar street performance build into a 30,000 race engine to get at the kind of power with some length of life you're dreaming of. You can get that kind of power out of a 350, or better yet a 383, for a lot less money as they are so much more efficient at turning gasoline into power than a 305. A 350 that delivers 400 horses is an absolute no brainer and 500 is not too much more difficult or expensive, it's almost taking a 350 with Vortec heads and a comp XE272 cam and trading the heads for some RHS's or AFRs or Darts and jazzing the cam to an XE282 with some tweaking to the compression and valve train then standing back and smiling; OK, s**t eating grinning. Most of this is in that extra quarter inch of bore, it's a world of difference. Ford has the same experience with the 289 and 302 Windsor (4 inch bore short stroke). A lesson about bore diameter to stroke ratios that Chrysler with the LA block didn't learn till the 340. There's something magic that just happens at 4 inches of bore and beyond with an inline valve wedge engine. The backside advantage is an engine that just makes lots of power and doesn't cost an arm and leg from your first born to get it.

"...I have done some research, and stumbled across an article from the January 2007 issue of Popular Hotrodding on a 305 build they did (here is the link for anyone who wants to read it, http://www.popularho...ks/viewall.html ). I have based my build plans on the same basic setup they were using, with some adjustments. In the article, their final result was a 372 horsepower 305, and that was using off-the-shelf aftermarket parts."

I have to wonder how these guys get the power numbers they toss around in these magazine articles. Kind of like back in the age of dinosaurs I was at the San Diego County Fair where this ambulance company had a booth with a Caddy 390 powered ambulance that they claimed delivered 500 horsepower. They did it with an OEM 4 barrel Rochester carb, stock Caddy cam, factory exhaust manifolds and dual exhaust into a Hyda-Matic 4 speed transmission (iron box automatic not today’s stuff). I was campaigning a 390 Ford FE at the time and with all the rocket science of the day it couldn't get to 500 horses. So I have my lingering suspicions about magazine articles and ambulance companies that pick out numbers from thin air. Add to that it appears the spell checker isn't working, Mr. Moderator are you behind the curtain. I saw no errors when first running the spell checking. I'm a professional engineer so I know it's not possible for me to compose this much without spelling errors so I dumped this into Word and got more of what I expected, as I know I ain't gonna win no spelling bee.

Bogie

Last edited by oldbogie; 04-03-2012 at 06:59 PM.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2012, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by oldbogie
...Add to that it appears the spell checker isn't working, Mr. Moderator are you behind the curtain. I saw no errors when first running the spell checking. I'm a professional engineer so I know it's not possible for me to compose this much without spelling errors so I dumped this into Word and got more of what I expected, as I know I ain't gonna win no spelling bee.Bogie
Mods aren't sitting, waiting to pull the trigger on spelling, typos or grammar, there aren't enough hours in the day.
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:22 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Mods aren't sitting, waiting to pull the trigger on spelling, typos or grammar, there aren't enough hours in the day.
I think he was implying that the spell check needs updating. I'm impressed that he cared enough to run it through Word.
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72
I think he was implying that the spell check needs updating. I'm impressed that he cared enough to run it through Word.
Figured that, and he's correct, there is a problem with the application, it's being worked. Thanks for the heads up Bogie.
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:53 PM
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I think he was implying that the spell check needs updating. I'm impressed that he cared enough to run it through Word.
I know some of my limitations, I only partially psychotic not completely.

Bogie
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