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Prepping Chassis?

6K views 53 replies 4 participants last post by  69 widetrack 
#1 · (Edited)
As a few of you may know, I got my car back from the bodyshop before it was finished

It's going to go to a new shop once I find one, but in the meantime I'm playing with the chassis

The chassis is sat in my garage in the primer that was applied after shot blasting

It needs the welds dressing, a few bits smoothing, and some pitting removing


I'd like to get these jobs done myself, but need some advice on where to begin......


For example, if I want to skim over the pitting, do I remove that primer first and skim onto the bare metal? or do I just fill over the 'shotblast-primer'


I haven't got a compressor, or any spray equipment, so the best I can do is rattle can stuff, which I'd want to avoid unless it was temporary until it went to the new bodyshop

There are a few areas of surface rust on the chassis again
I don't want to spend ages smoothing and skimming areas if the chassis eventually gets shotblaster again
 
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#3 ·
What type of primer is on your frame? You would need to remove any surface rust with sand paper, wire wheel, brush, whatever you can to remove the rust...it needs to be gone. Any and all surfaces that are pitted or need attention should also be roughed up with sand paper, 120 grit should be fine (180 in a pinch). The ideal situation would be for you to now apply 2 coats of Epoxy primer over the entire frame and allow proper flash times between coats and let them set up for about 24 to 48 hours. You can then apply a 2 part putty over the pits smooth them using 180 grit sand paper and apply 2 more coats of Epoxy primer.

Having a compressor and a paint gun will do the best job, try avoiding spray cans if at all possible. You like the car right? You have a lot of money into so far right? Don't destroy your dream with rattle can paint or primer...do it right, if you don't have the equipment, rent it, borrow it, pay someone who has it but, if you do pay someone, be specific as to what your going to pay and what you expect.

Ray
 
#5 ·
What type of primer is on your frame? You would need to remove any surface rust with sand paper, wire wheel, brush, whatever you can to remove the rust...it needs to be gone. Any and all surfaces that are pitted or need attention should also be roughed up with sand paper, 120 grit should be fine (180 in a pinch). The ideal situation would be for you to now apply 2 coats of Epoxy primer over the entire frame and allow proper flash times between coats and let them set up for about 24 to 48 hours. You can then apply a 2 part putty over the pits smooth them using 180 grit sand paper and apply 2 more coats of Epoxy primer.

Having a compressor and a paint gun will do the best job, try avoiding spray cans if at all possible. You like the car right? You have a lot of money into so far right? Don't destroy your dream with rattle can paint or primer...do it right, if you don't have the equipment, rent it, borrow it, pay someone who has it but, if you do pay someone, be specific as to what your going to pay and what you expect.

Ray
I am with you on this Ray, but I don't wrap up all "Rattle cans" in to one stroke of the keyboard anymore after doing a test on the 2K versions!

Epoxy
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/solvent-resistant-real-2k-epoxy-aerosol-can-143345.html


Filler primer
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/2k-aerosol-can-filler-primer-review-144268.html

Complete repair without a compressor.

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/compressor-less-all-aerosol-repair-review-158502.html

I can't find the link to the follow up, four years after that fender was shot. The day after I shot it I put it up on the roof of a shed at the shop in Sept 09. I got it down a year or so ago and clay barred it to get all the crap off and it looked like the day it was shot!

Nope, all Aerosols are NOT created equal that is for sure!

Brian
 
#4 ·
No spray gun or compressor? You are really asking for a PILE of work doing this without that!

First off, you need to know how well it was sand blasted and what primer was put over it? If you can scratch into the pits and there is rust, you are screwed because it may not have been blasted well enough. To fill them all and paint the frame could be a whole truck load of work that will be wasted. What was it primed with? Well if it was some urethane primer right over the bare metal that may not be a good idea, depending on the brand and part number, epoxy would be much better.

If it was sand blasted properly and epoxy primed, filling those pits with regular old plastic filler like Evercoat's "RAGE" or using a polyester putty like Evercoat's "Glaze coat" would be a cut to the chase get her done then put a REAL 2K epoxy primer over that using a rattle can like this....Eastwood's 2K Aero-Spray

I haven't used this particular brand but the Rubberseal 2K epoxy primer in an aerosol can that I did try was great!

Ok, that is how you could get it done. Not the easiest and not the best way but you could get it done ready for paint.


Brian
 
#6 ·
As we know, "ant 8u" has a pile of cash in this project and not all of the cash has gone into the restoration, a lot of it has gone into the pocket of a less than scrupulous individual...however...if he wants it done right and I hope that is were his question was going...rattle cans...for primer or paint aren't the answer.

I always try and answer a post as if it was my vehicle and if I had that much invested and was that far into the project, I wouldn't start using inferior products just to "get her done". If it's a cash issue, save the money and do it right. if you just want to have it finished and don't care about the longevity, spray bombs away.

Ray
 
#7 ·
Again, you are very right! I was just tossing out there the options. But yes, seems like a terrible waste not to do it up right. But honestly, have you ever seen these 2K aerosols? It literally is pretty much the same as spraying out of a gun from what I found with my tests. The big difference of course is that it is EXPENSIVE being an aerosol can only has about 3-4 ounces of product in it! At $20 to spray two mils of primer on a few square feet of metal it's pretty crazy. But if you click on the links and see what I was able to do with the stuff, we are talking wet lac thinner soaked rag test on that epoxy the next day with ZERO transfer.

Brian
 
#9 ·
You also made some good points about what's underneath the primmer...if it's a given that the frame may need to be taken down to bare steel again, what's the cost difference between rattle can Epoxy and Paint Gun Epoxy? If that is the case...is it worth taking the gamble on a rattle can?

Ray
 
#10 ·
Again, this is an alternative that IS feasible. I am telling you, the stuff acted just like what comes out of the gun. The clear, I cut and buffed it the next day, not even 24 hours just as I would clear out of a gun, the epoxy primer, same thing, lacquer rub test passed in not even 24 hours!

It is NOT cost effective, not by a long shot! But if someone was hell bent on doing that frame at home they could do a small area at a time and get it into epoxy primer then take the whole thing when ready for a coat of primer and paint out of a gun and I honestly feel it would be perfectly fine on a frame, depending on what the owners expectations were.

If you wanted hands down the best way, not on your life the stuff is too thin, it's a joke in that regard. But all I can say is I was damn impressed with the stuff.

I didn't re-read it all but as I remember I tried to see how much I could spray with one can of the primer and I didn't even get half of a small Honda hood with two coats, which could barely be 2 mils as I remember, it is VERY thin and as mentioned only what, 3-4 ounces in a can, those $20 cans would add up VERY fast.


Brian
 
#12 ·
I tossed out an option....2k aerosols. But Ray is right, why?

When the rubber meets the road of course if you are building a car you are GOING TO need a compressor along the way. I can't imagine not having my compressor at home, and I very rarely paint or prime anything, yet I use it all the time. So getting a compressor and getting it over with is of course the best way to handle this issue. Cut to the chase, get it over with and move on having fun working on your car.

Hell, if you have a garage and a compressor you don't need to bring the car anywhere to do anything, you can do it all at home. If you think you can't, just spend some time around these forums and you will see countless guys who started out without any knowledge what so ever in this stuff and they end up doing the whole car! It's not rocket science, it's not open heart surgery, one small step at a time and you CAN get this stuff done.

Get yourself a compressor and get to work! :thumbup:

Brian
 
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#15 ·
Ray, there is always the "Best" way, but there is what I like to call the "Bestest" way. Replacing the rusted metal with new metal is the "Best" way to fix that rust. Slathering bondo over it would be the "wrong" way. But cleaning it up and epoxy priming it and filling it with Everglass would be the "Bestest" way, you know what I mean?

Over the years I have been surprised at how often the "Bestest" way gets the job done for someone. That's why I toss those things out there. If someone does it the "wrong" way that is just a friggin waste of time. But the "bestest".....that can often work out and meet the guys expectations.

Having the "best" and the "bestest" to pick from is so much better than going at it blind.

Brian
 
#16 ·
So true Brian and we have all had occasion to do what you call the "bestest" way (if we've been in the trade long enough)...I do understand...however...for the OP and the amount of money, time and how much he obviously cares for this vehicle, I felt that the "bestest" way may serve him short term, whereas the "best" way will serve him long term. So the OP needs to decide, if he wants something that may work or something that has a much higher percentage, a proven track record if you will of working.

Ray
 
#17 ·
And I too would go with getting a new toy......a compressor. :D And then all the new toys that go with it, die grinder, spray gun, angle grinder, impact wrench, air ratchet, air drill,and on and on. You most certainly don't need to go out and mortgage the house to get it all at once but once you get that compressor you just can't stop until you have it all. :D

And the best part, it's WAY cheaper than paying someone to do it! Even with mistakes and do-overs, it's STILL cheaper than paying someone to do it!

Brian
 
#18 · (Edited)
Brian, Ray,........Thank you :)

Yes, you're right, I do care about this car, and I also care about doing things the right way

At present I don't know very much about bodywork at all. I've been on here for a little while quietly reading, and occasionally asking for assistance, but so far I'm yet to dive into any work myself (mainly due to time constraints from work)

My current thinking is that I'll continue to find another garage to do the tub and bonnet, but that I might be able to do some stuff on the frame myself

I know it's the detail that takes the time, and therefore the money. And whilst I don't have the skills to do the tub, I think I have got the eye for detail to do at least something to the frame

I think I could do a good job on the frame by smoothing the welds, spatter, and pitting, and could save myself some cash in the process

I think those jobs on the frame are time intensive rather than high skill level jobs

I would like to do these jobs myself, but only if I can do them properly

I don't know what primer was used after shotblasting
I can tell you it's grey and that it doesn't come off all that easily if you scratch at it
I would bet my life that the shotblasters didn't use epoxy on it though

If I could strip the chassis back to bare metal and apply a skim of filler to smooth things, then maybe apply some rattle primer (just for short term protection until it went to the bodyshop) I'd be happy to do that

If I had to epoxy it before doing anything like that I think I'd be best of just removing any spatter and just smoothing the welds

I'd like to do some more stuff on this car, but there are currently so many reasons not to. Time and skills being the main things I'm lacking

I'm going to do everything else on the car myself, but I think I'll have to leave the bodywork to someone else this time

I know for sure if I ever do another project I'll be doing the bodywork myself


I've had this car for quite a while and it's very important it's finished to a high standard
At this moment in time the finish is more important than doing it myself


I'm the sort of person that has to make sure all the light switches in my house are lined up the same way before I go to bed.....When I put a tool down I put it perpendicular to the item I'm working on.......I always put paper down on a desk or table in straight lines.....when I put things in my pockets I always put my phone in my left pocket and my wallet and keys in my right pocket.......I'm very obsessive about things like that, and I know it's not healthy :)

Because of this, I think if I did the bodywork myself I'd only be disappointed, as it wouldn't be as good as I'd want it to be

A lot of people have mentioned they think I'm a perfectionist......not in the sense that everything I do is perfect (far from it) but in the sense that I never see things as being 'good enough'.....things could always be better

I think if I did the work on my car I'd always be disappointed because I know it could have been so much better

This is why I think I should do the frame (or at least some of it) myself

I can happily spend hours sitting and smoothing things out that other people don't think are important

I think these very minute details are what most places don't do as they think they're time wasting or not important, but to me, those little details are the most important part of the job - it's what makes a job really stand out

I think I'm rambling and need to stop typing now
But I'm guessing I should maybe just do the smoothing and grinding for now and leave the rest for someone else

I would like to buy a compressor though
Maybe one day, once I've finished procrastinating
 
#19 ·
You have the attitude needed to get your vehicle to the point where you know you would like it to be. It appears that you feel you don't have the talent...Attitude is every bit as important as talent if not more so, I've seen many a technician that had all the talent but had a terrible attitude, it shows in their work and I'd sooner deal wit a person that cares.

I'm very confident that you do in fact have the ability to get your frame done and...be happy with it. All you need to do is keep asking question while your working on it, perhaps purchase a few tools along the way. There are many of us here that are more than willing to help, all you need to do is decide that your ready to attempt it.

The ball is in your court, first, decide if you want to keep the existing primer on the frame, if you can find out what's on it, I'm sure that would make your decision easier.

Ray
 
#20 ·
These are all great ideas. It seems that we have the chassis that is rust,primer and some serious pitting. Unless it's re-blasted it's a situation of marginal surface prep. We have no equipment and don't want to spend a fortune, but it needs to last. Grind everything with 80 grit. Put a little prep on the bare metal .Get a four-inch foam roller and some brushes and roll don't laugh 2/3 coats and the mastercoat silver sealer.This will seal the frame airtight and will level most of the pitting. Mastercoat extreme is loaded with aluminum paste that can be squeegeed into real heavy pitting or glazing putty will work. Run another coat of silver over the the putty,then take a soft China bristle brush and brush the AG 111 over it.you should be able to see your eyeballs in it
 
#21 ·
Pats, thanks for the info

Unfortunately, after spending time taking some measurements it's become very clear the chassis is now the very least of my problems :(

I'll post more info when I'm more motivated to do so
Right now I'm feeling kind of down
 
#24 ·
Ok guys

Here's some quick pictures to show what I've found so far

Note, I've marked out the centrelines of the bodytub and the chassis, and they are sitting straight on each other

(The tape measure isn't very accurate in the pictures as I ran out of hands, but you probably get the idea)



Notice this gap - this is how it should be as there's a locating bracket that fits in that space





Much smaller gap on the other side





Rough measurements







I made a template of the left hand side, and transferred it to the right hand side for comparison





Here's the reverse side of that template as viewed down the length of the car ( as viewed from rear to front)





So, basically, my firewall and floor pan on the right hand side have been cut about an inch too far in

This means I cant fit the locating brackets to the chassis as there isnt enough room

It also means my transmission tunnel and carpets won't fit, and that my side profiles aren't the same (although that last point is obviously not something you'll ever notice)


I'm so depressed right now
 
#25 ·
Depression is something that we all go through, especially in situations such as this...the bright side, as mentioned by the members that posted before me are all willing to help.

Brian, (MARTNSR), do you remember that Nova a few months ago with the frame issues...nothing lined up. He had been to numerous forums trying to get answers. It wasn't until he came here and people like MARTINSR took the time along with others and solved the situation. I still stay in contact with individual and things are moving along on his build very well, the sheet metal has all been lined up...his problems, seemed unrepairable.... to him. I feel that your at the place, there is so much experience on this forum, along with people that are willing to help and are looking for no monetary gain. It's about giving back. With a team like that in your corner, try and make your depression short lived...we have work to do.

Best Regards
Ray
 
#26 ·
Yep, what I want to know with this car is what did they exactly do to it? Did they make the whole area we are looking at in the photo?

Ant, do you have before pictures? Please tell me you have before pictures.

Brian
 
#27 ·
Thanks Ray

It's so good to know there are people such as yourself and Brian that are prepared to help just out of passion

I know these problems aren't massive by any means, certainly not to someone with talent and experience

Unfortunately, I'm lacking these at the moment, and every time I've tuned to someone for help they've taken advantage of me

I know you guys are here to help, that's what's keeping me going at this point in time - guys like you


Brian, the bodytub had already had a lot of work done elsewhere before these guys took over

The floorplans, rockers, and many other panels had been replaced previously

The firewall had some rot, which was cut out and replaced with new steel

The guys that did the last bit of work didn't fit the floors themselves, but after taking tens if thousands of dollars of my money they didn't try and rectify it at all. It looks like they actually tried to work around the problem by elongating and redrilling the body mounting holes

I don't know if just one side or both sides are wrong, but from what I can make out so far it looks like its just the right hand side that's wrong

I've got quite a few pictures, but I don't know how many will be relevant to this part of the car, I'll have to have a look and see what I've got

I'm still waiting for the bodyshop to provide photos they said they'd taken for me

Let me know if there's any areas you'd like pictures of

In the meantime I'll take a few more measurements and post pictures where there are big variances



There's a big show on 18th of this month, so I could always take a tailors tape measure to that and see if a few owners would help me take a few dimensions from their cars

Let me know if there's anything I can do in the meantime

Thanks again guys
 
#28 ·
Thank you for the kind words.

Any and all measurements will help, if you can find another car to compare these measurements to or perhaps find a chassis manual that gives you those measurements we will be able to figure out what, where and how things got out of place and come up with remedy to repair it.

It's unfortunate that this type of thing happens, it's a black eye on the trade and with the internet making the world smaller, it makes that black eye Global.

What we need to do now is concentrate on what can be done and getting the information on where things need to be would a good place to start. It may be a good idea to demand any and all documentation and the pictures they promised you of what the previous shop did, that should give us some clues as well.

As we get more information, pictures will play an important role.

Ray
 
#29 ·
First things first, you need to measure more accurately. On the left side you are holding the ruler perfectly, it is going straight into the bracket and level. You are about an inch up off the bottom of the bracket. On the right side your ruler is at the bottom of the bracket, tucked into the corner, your measurements are going to be inconsistent and worthless.

That line you are measuring to goes at an angle, so if you measure higher up on it as you did on the left side you will see that the number is going to be closer to the left side than what we are seeing in the photo.

Were those brackets moved? You mentioned they don't match the holes in the frame, could the left one need to be moved out and/or the right one need to be moved in? In other words are you measuring from something that is wrong to begin with?


Brian
 
#30 ·
By the way, I hate to bring anything more up but it looks like there was a lot of "sculpting" done there with filler. They cut the lines in the filler with a cut off wheel, that is not very professional.

There may be a bunch of work you need to correct, yes, you got screwed by that body shop. But move on, learn yourself, find a quality and trusted shop and move on. If you need to step back and do something else and forget about this car for a few months, do so, clear your head. It's all fixable!

Brian
 
#31 · (Edited)
Ok guys
I'm going to call the bodyshop in the morning to ask about my photos

I've also found out about a couple of other cars that are about an hour away, so I'll go and see them to get some measurements

I'm also trying to find some technical drawings and dimensions to check against

In the meantime, here are a few more pictures for you all



This first picture shows the cars interior




Here's the interior/transmission area from the left hand side





And from the right hand side




The body needs to move over a little further to the left, but the floorpan is already hitting the frame rail around this area (there's a lot of room on the left have side frame rail)




Here are the first set of holes that have been messed with
They're located each side of the transmission tunnel area

These ones are on the right hand side




And these are on the left hand side




With regards to the holes not lining up and such.....I've marked out the centre point of the bodytub and the chassis with some lengths of string. I'm using these centre points as my point of reference. That way I'm hoping to get a true idea of what's out of place


I've found some information saying the distance from one rocker seam to the other should be 120cm

I've measured mine, and it seems to be correct.....but I can't work out how/why this is right, but the bulkhead area is so badly wrong






So, from what I can see so far, it looks like the left hand floor is correct, but the right hand floor is miles out where it meets the firewall

Those brackets on the front of the firewall (the ones I measured from in my previous post) haven't been moved at all. They almost match up with their fixing points, but don't quite. This is due to the right hand floor pan coming into contact with the chassis rail, thereby stopping the bodytub from moving over any further

Anyone got any thoughts?


Brian, I'll try and find some pictures of the firewall so you can let me know what you think about the filler and cut off wheels you mentioned

Just wanted to add - I'm feeling good and full of motivation again, and just wanted to thank everyone for that

I know I haven't really made any progress yet, and I know there's a lot of work ahead, but I'm feeling good knowing this is going to be resolved properly

Today is a good day :)
 
#35 ·
Ok guys


I've found some information saying the distance from one rocker seam to the other should be 120cm

I've measured mine, and it seems to be correct.....but I can't work out how/why this is right, but the bulkhead area is so badly wrong
This is my point on checking the frame, IT may be your biggest problem. But cross measure the body too, you need to find "control points" often the best are body mounts but if you look around you will find them in the form of holes that were used to align the panels during construction.

Brian
 
#32 ·
Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you but, I worked through the night from Monday to Tuesday and I dropped off early last evening. When I finally got up, I responded to numerous Emails but, here I am.

OK, first of all, they put the dash in backwards...you'll need to drive the car from the passenger side now when your done...LOL...sorry I couldn't resist.

After looking at your pictures (and they are giving me a much better indication, thank you), reading your previous thread and listening with respect to what you have gone through, I would say that we do need to get specifications for your frame/chassis. In your previous thread, you mentioned that the shop you had taken it to, mentioned that they needed to acquire a new frame. Until we can cross measure your existing frame, we don't know exactly what is going on.

If the floor area was worked on and pieces/metal replaced and if there was previous damage to your chassis, things won't line up. Now, enlarging the mounting holes is never an answer to making a body fit the chassis, so whoever did that should have known that there was a problem. The other thing I noticed is that there aren't any body mount bushings between the body and the chassis...if there where, the body would be raised and then it may bolt to the frame. That doesn't mean your frame is Okay, that just explains how the body could have been attached to frame before it was taken apart.

So, to recap.

Lets get any and all documentation from the shop as they promised.
Lets get specifications for the frame, you should be able to attain them from a frame shop...or a shop that specializes in frame straightening. (who knows, in doing that you may find a reputable place to take it to).
if you can find other vehicles that you can compare measurements to, that would be great.

So, you have some investigative work ahead of you...it may turn out that your original frame may have some issues, we just can't tell until we get the information mentioned.

Glad to hear that your spirits are up and thank you for supplying the pictures.

Ray
 
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