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Old 04-27-2006, 10:33 AM
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price of alcohol go up too?

sence the of gas goes up. does alcohol price go up too. just woundering .never bought alcohol for a car. if the price is the same wouldnt it be better to run a higher c/r motor with ach. more power and cleaner burning...

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Old 04-27-2006, 10:42 AM
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Alky is made from corn, not crude oil. The price of alky is still around 2.00 a gallon but you need 2.5 times the amount for combustion.
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Old 04-27-2006, 10:42 AM
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Sure. It takes oil energy to make the alcohol. It most cases it costs more to make the alcohol per gallon than it does to refine the gasoline itself. Not to mention that alcohol has less power per gallon so we have to use more.

The only thing that alcohol fuel will help is the depletion of the oil reserves.
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Old 04-27-2006, 12:01 PM
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Not quite true xentrix. Industry has improved the making of alcohol quite a bit in recent years. Try reading up on newer ethanol sites. Making it from corn isn't the best way since the corn has to be converted to a sugar then that into alcohol. Brazil already had a huge sugar production base, so it was easy for them. Corn has been traditionally used over here because we usually have a surplus. Using only surplus grain had advantages, but farmers grow less when there is to much surplus becasue their profit falls. The by-products of making alky from corn are also used to make cattle feed, which further reduces cost a bit. Using sugar cane and/or sugar beets yields more because one stp is taken out. Cane can't grow just anywhere, beets will. IIRC the latest on ethanol was that it took 1.26 gallons to make 2.00 gallons, so there's only 0.74 gallons to make a profit on. Not much, but apparently enough with today's dino fuel prices.

Prices of ethanol have gone up lately so that E85 is about the same price as straight gasoline. There is a government edict that all stations be capable of pumping alcohol, and that all gasoline in the US contain some alcohol, by 01 May, I've heard. Most cars won't notice 10-15% added, and it will boost octane without reducing fuel mileage. I know the local station has posted that they may be out of gasoline for a day or two due to having to clean their storage tanks in order to hold alcohol containing fuel. Alky holds moisture and loosens all the crud left by years of straight dino fuel, so the tanks haveto be throughly cleaned. Emptied, cleaned, then fresh fuel hauled in = 1-2 days with no fuel to sell! The requirement that gasoline contain alcohol (and a lot of states are using alky to replace MTBE) is driving demand way up, which is making cost go up since there are only so many alky plants in the US. Those oil coompanies should be investing some of those recent "record profits" in alky plants!! Ethanol is one way of storing hydrogen for fuel cells as well, so if we convert the infrastructure to ethanol now we're set for burning it straight or using with fuel cells. Apparently it's easier to split ethanol into hydrogen and water than to split water. Makes sense -- I know it takes a LOT of energy to split H2O!!
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Old 04-27-2006, 12:16 PM
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That all depends on how you look at it.
All that product conversion takes energy.

All my cars lose about 6 % mileage with 10 % ethanol added gasolines. Tried it many times. Big difference when I drive 00 to Illinois and have to buy ethanol 91+ octane.

00 TownCar
90 TownCar 5.0
97 Mustang GT
98 Mark 8
90 Must GT fuelie stuff in hot rod
etc.

added=

There is no alcohol in this part of the world that I am aware of. There is some up near St. Louis.
I heard MTBE is outlawed everywhere now. It also eats up older fuel delivery systems.
Running 85 % ethanol in anything we are talking about is moot.

As for those folks griping about gasoline prices. Be aware that the USA has not built a new oil refinery since 1972, it takes 14 years to get one operating, and the federal government effectively prohibits building of new oil refineries in the USA.

Consider also that the tree huggers are fighting the Alaska deal and yet in the same motion they deplore foreign imports while they drive their SUVs.

The Alaskan upper slope drilling will take about 15+ years to be operable AFTER we finally get started.

If the USA uses its oil reserves to make our prices lower, where will we get more oil when ours is gone, and at what price per gallon?

Consider also the middle east oil sources. If we pulled out of Iraq or had not gone there, Iran would take over Iraq along with their buddy Communist China (which already owns the USA economy), and together their friend Saudi would be there too. Can you imagine the Muslim world, Al Quaida, etc. controlling 75 % of the known oil reserves in the world. Do you think that gasoline would be $ 10 a gallon????????

Last edited by xntrik; 04-27-2006 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 04-27-2006, 01:10 PM
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Allow me to also remind you that Communist China is now the # 2 oil consumer in the world and in 8-10 years their comsumption will exceed that of the USA. Communist China is willing and able to pay whatever price is necessary to purchase the world's oil to maintain their record industrial growth.

And remember this...... Communist China is funding their record growth and purchasing their record barrels of oil using money WE GAVE THEM. They are using our money to fund everything they do worldwide.

Buy from Wal Mart. The Commies need your money.

And learn Spanish.
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Old 04-27-2006, 03:27 PM
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um.. I know that everyone is so concerned about Iraq and Iran and its relation to oil, but what about Canada and Mexico? The majority of our oil comes from these two countries and about 10% comes from the middle east.

And it does not take 14 years to build a refinery. If you have to process expidited through congress you're looking more at 2 years.

And you can produce ethanol without ever touching a drop of crude oil or a lump of coal.

I know I'm probably one of the few enviromental engineers on here and as such will be labeled as a tree huggin hippie, but I'm the farthest hting from it. It is good to know that we can manipulate nature to provide us with what we need though- if we only have the will to do it- which is the hardest thing to get when it coems to these projects.
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Old 04-27-2006, 04:06 PM
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Gasoline should cost about six bucks a gallon, maybe seven. If they raised the price that high, we would get ourselves out of the stone ages.

Alternative power, mass transit systems, and harnessing the sun and wind should be top priority.

If we would get to work on this, then oil would cost about five bucks a barrel, and China could turn their land into a smog infested wasteland with fossil fuels.


Brian


PS, This is being moved to the Hotrodders Lounge.
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Old 04-27-2006, 04:39 PM
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NARIB, As painful as it may be you are right, as long as we continue to waste resources like we do we will be at the mercy of the oil companies and foreign energy sources. All we hear lately when we turn on the news is something needs to be done about fuel prices but it has to stop somewhere we can not keep going and consuming natural resources at the rate we are now. In spite of what a lot of people want to believe the oil reserves are limited it is not inexhaustible but it seems most people want to blame the oil companies and the president and demand that government subsidize our wasteful ways and allow us to continue on the road to disaster until it is to late! The ONLY answer is to change our way of thinking and our wasteful driving habits, the current trend can not continue and it seems that only high prices will bring about change.
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Old 04-27-2006, 04:43 PM
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if people would drive the speed limit we would save gas, so you speeders quit crying about gas prices, you are the ones uses it up, but i do like to get on my 61 when the law aint around
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Old 04-27-2006, 05:20 PM
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It's going to take individuals to get it done. I'm fed up with it, and I'm tired of chasing the rabbit around the track. I am going to cut my lifestyle back even more and free up some time to do some creative things around the house.

I might even move to Coldwater, and set up my internet business there, and find a small farm to start a self-sufficient lifestyle like they used to do in the old days.


STICK IT TO THE MAN
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Old 04-28-2006, 06:51 AM
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I just retired my 6spd '95 TransAm to drive my old 88 Merc. Tracer. I lost a few liters, 4 cylinders, 1 gear, but the gas gauge works much better now. This way I can burn almost no gas driving to work - and then waste a bunch of it in my 68 camaro and 48 ford on the weekends
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Old 04-28-2006, 08:41 AM
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Hotrod, That is what I meant by "change our wasteful driving habits" To get out on the weekend and enjoy your special ride if you don't mind spending the extra ga$ dollars is just fine and not being wasteful. What is wasteful is a 2 ton 4x4 hauling one person to work on dry pavement at 10 MPG or less and in my part of the country anyway this very example makes up a great deal of the rush hour traffic, That is wasteful!
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Old 04-28-2006, 10:07 AM
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That is why

This sort of thing is why I have a little 4 cyl for running around and doing errands..My truck stays home unless I need to haul something which living out in the country I do need to do from time to time..

Actually i do belive in the waste not want not my elders showed me when I was young..took a while for that lesson to sink in..

Sam
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Old 04-28-2006, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
sence the of gas goes up. does alcohol price go up too. just woundering .never bought alcohol for a car
CHECK THIS

A small paragraph from the site:

One very important fact about alcohol fuel should be stressed. Alcohol is an excellent alternative motor fuel for gasoline engines. It is not a suitable alternative for home heating or for essentially stationary power requirements. The production of alcohol consumes energy. Exactly how much depends on the feedstock (raw material) and the efficiency of the distillation process.
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