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Old 08-27-2007, 06:07 PM
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Problem setting up guts of ten bolt

Howdy to all 8.5 Chevy ten bolt rear end-ers! I have one which is way goofed up. I have located all new guts to put in, done homework for a few weeks now. I have one last question which I can't seem to answer using friends and web etc., then I wanna buy all guts new!

Suppose one has no guts for his rear end, then buys a pinion gear, bearings and shims, and seal, and in/lb torque wrench, adapter, socket, huge breaker bar, crush sleeve,...what did I forget? Oh yah! The question! How do I arrive at the shim which sets the pinion depth? (HAH! You thought this was going to be EASY?!)

Do I just go with 0.030" and then do contact pattern test? WHA? Comon! Give!

Thanks a ton, your pal,

R

PS I don't have tool J-6266-35-yatta-yatta-yatta

PSS Where's the J-Tool store?

PSSP?... Never mind, I probably can't afford J-Tools anyhow.
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:20 PM
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mmm I have no answers for you but I sure hope someone does, cause I need to replace the gear in my maro' cause the 2.73 gear is NOT cutting it.

BTW That pinion looks "defective". Somehow the gear lube must have changed the meleculor structure of the metal and caused it to dissperce into the case.

Then again, it could have been a 500hp motor with 10" wide slicks on a rear diff that had 200,000 mi on it.
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Old 08-27-2007, 07:10 PM
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Pinion is shot......youll have to obtain a ring gear too (ring and pinion matched set) otherwise your asking for trouble
Shane
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Old 08-27-2007, 07:59 PM
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"The question! How do I arrive at the shim which sets the pinion depth? (HAH! You thought this was going to be EASY?!)"



it is easy. use the one that is on the pinion that is in the rear now.
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Old 08-27-2007, 08:55 PM
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Okey-Dokey,

Holder350: Um, if you have 2.73 cog you maybe have GM3 carrier, um, which will work with bigger cogs. I got stuck with GM2 carrier for hi-way cogs and no good for hole shot like I want. Bummer.

Also, pinion gear is toast because former owner of this thing put in big cogs with small cog carrier. I was told it ran about 90 feet, then quit working. Lots of small chunks inside when I got there.

Chevrolet4x4s: Thanks dude, I kinda figured I'd need both cogs because one had no teeth and the other had chunks missing....;-)

Vortech 4.3: Hmmm....I think it is a keen idea to verify things like how many shims are supposed to be there before I count on the last guy doing his job perfect...you know....cause, ah.... it blew up on him.
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Old 08-27-2007, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwruther
...............................
Chevrolet4x4s: Thanks dude, I kinda figured I'd need both cogs because one had no teeth and the other had chunks missing....;-)...........
Make sure you get a matched set or the gears may not mesh properly
Shane

ps lets see more pics of the carnage
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Old 08-28-2007, 07:56 AM
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Yes, you have to verify the pattern and adjust the shims accordingly.
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:28 AM
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The question! How do I arrive at the shim which sets the pinion depth?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(Original question above)

Getting new gears, new carrier, new bearings all new new new... now, who knows how to set pinion deapth without GM gages? Anybody?! Yoo-Hooo!

Is the only way "try a 0.030" shim, crush the crush sleeve till 20 inch/pounds torque, install ring gear, put carrier in, then do contact surface test and if the pattern is bad... try another shim and start over"???

Your olden geezer pal
R

PS ring gear and carrier pic below? (Wrong carrier for 3.42, so I yanked it)
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Old 08-29-2007, 03:00 PM
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Hi again all you Chevy ten bolt 8.5 inch rear end experts!

Here is my original question: Empty rear end housing, how to set up the pinion gear?

I called Drivetrain Specialists(?) at 800 216 1632, spoke with Brent on their tech team. He says that the tool which is used to arrive at this shim size costs a ton....not good to buy for only one rear end. But, that he, Brent, has assembled tons of these rear ends. This experience leads him to suggest that I could use: a 0.028 shim for the pinion gear, 0.014 inch/pounds of torque to spin the pinion gear (set pre-load), 0.012 inch ring/pinion back-lash.

He also gave me his cell phone and said to call him with questions day, evening, and or week ends until I am driving and satisfied.

So, I think this is a good starting point for me. I'll buy the gears, carrier, bearings, and the kit for assembly from these guys after I build a jig to hang on to my pinion yoke...

I hope the above helps out some other hapless rear end re-builder out there like me!

Here are links I found helpful, enjoy!

http://www.drivetrain.com/
http://www.73-87.com/
http://www.car-stuff.com/performance...8&skipped=true
http://www.drivetrain.com//gm8.5.html
http://www.fordification.com/rearends-ford.htm
http://www.2quicknovas.com/happyrearends.html
http://www.73-87.com/links/trklinks.htm
http://www.novaresource.org/axle.htm
http://www.oldsmobility.com/10bolt-tech.htm
http://www.pirate4x4.com/articles/te...sta/Gear_Setup
http://www.ringpinion.com/TipArchives.aspx
http://carnut.com/specs/rear.html
http://www.camaros.net/forums/private.php
http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/howto/3084/
http://www.roddingroundtable.com/tec...s/boltpat.html
http://www.toolsource.com/torque-wre...FRUHWAodJXL5Kg
http://www.73-87.com/links/trklinks.htm
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Old 08-29-2007, 05:24 PM
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I have the tool to measure the depth, but in the end if the pattern is not good you have to change the shim. If you get a setup bearing for the rear pinion, it makes changing the shim simple and quick. You can make a setup bearing with a die grinder if you cant find one. Have you checked to see what a local driveline shop gets for doing the job? To bench build a complete axle, should be a 3-4 hour job.
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmsport
I have the tool to measure the depth, but in the end if the pattern is not good you have to change the shim. If you get a setup bearing for the rear pinion, it makes changing the shim simple and quick. You can make a setup bearing with a die grinder if you cant find one. Have you checked to see what a local driveline shop gets for doing the job? To bench build a complete axle, should be a 3-4 hour job.
How'd you get the tool??

And how does a set up bearing make the job of finding the proper shim simple and quick? I'm not getting this at all. Suppose I make "a setup bearing" with a die grinder. I suspect I can't make a bunch of rollers, inner, outer races, all that, that's crazy! So, what? Is it a hockey puck like thing, a fake bearing? Suppose it's a fake bearing and I put it at "the rear position"...behind the pinion gear, not forward by the yoke, right? Then I assume I have to torque the yoke nut, with crush sleeve in there too....I can't see how this is going to be making it easy to find the proper shim.

Help me out here, I must be reading you wrong or something?

R

Oh...PS.... thanks for the help anyhow...I'm grateful for all comments as I am totally paranoid about screwing this up and having to re-do it later. I totally can't get into that at all....
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Old 08-29-2007, 09:50 PM
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Without the pinion depth gauge your only choice is to try a shim from the middle of your selection of thicknesses. Put it together, set pinion preload, backlash and check your pattern. Read the pattern and adjust the shim accordingly and repeat!

A couple of things that will make it easier is to sacrifice a new rear (big) pinion bearing by SLIGHTLY grinding out (I would have it machined) the inner part where is fits on the pinion to allow you to change shims without wrecking a few bearings, I think they are about $40 apiece. The other thing to do is use the old crush sleeve until you get the right pinion depth, then replace with the new one and set preload then.

Here is the procedure that I use for integral housing differentials.....

Here is my procedure for setting up a shim type differential and it comes right from a great GM Instructor. The procedure calls for using shims to position the case for proper backlash and side bearing preload (you would need a complete set of shims to do this). If you think you can use your original shims, there is some info in here that might be helpful as well. If your preload, backlash, and contact pattern are all OK, your diff should give you many trouble free miles of operation! Also, this works on GM differentials and others may work with some variations, I am not sure on the others.

Rick


DIFFERENTIAL REPAIR PROCEDURE
(INTEGRAL TYPE)



1. Remove cover - allow oil to drain.
2. Clean teeth with solvent, check tooth contact pattern, and record.
3. Check backlash in 3 spots around ring gear (general specification is .005" to .009" with no more than .002" variation).
4. Check ring gear runout (.003" maximum).
5. Remove axles.
6. Check total preload and record.
7. Mark and remove side bearing caps.
8. Measure shims on both sides and record.
9. Check pinion bearing preload and record.
10. Inspect all bearings, races, and gears for pitting or other damage.
11. Replace pinion bearing races (if required).
12. Check pinion depth with special tool (if available).
13. Replace pinion bearings with correct pinion depth shim in place (lube bearings lightly).
14. Install pinion gear, new crush sleeve, front bearing, seal, yoke, washer and nut.
15. Tighten pinion nut until proper pinion bearing preload is achieved and record (should be 15-20 lbs./in. for used bearings and 20-30 lbs./in. for new bearings).
16. Replace side bearings and races (lube lightly).
17. Hold ring gear and differential case assembly in place.
18. Temporarily place a waved shim (.040") on outside of right side bearing race.
19. Pack left side bearing with shims until zero backlash is obtained.
20. Pack right side bearing to zero preload (remove waved .040" shim).
21. To set backlash and side bearing preload subtract .004" from left shim pack and add .012" to the right shim pack
22. Install side bearing caps and torque bolts to specifications.
23. Check backlash in 3 places and record (should be .005" to .009" with less than .002" variance).
24. Check total preload and record.
25. Use the following formula to check side bearing preload. Total preload - pinion preload = _______ x axle ratio = side bearing preload.
26. Side bearing preload should be 15-30 lbs./in. for new bearings.
27. Use gear marking compound and check the gear tooth contact pattern to double check setup.
28. If backlash and side bearing preload is within specifications, finish assembling the remaining parts, torque all fasteners to specifications.
29. Add the correct lubricant and road test vehicle to confirm the repair.






Original Measurements

Gear contact pattern OK______Not OK_______Explain:

Backlash:

Ring gear runout:

Total preload:

Side bearing shim totals - Left side__________ Right side__________

Check pinion bearing preload:

Pinion depth shim thickness:

Parts needed:





Reassembly Measurements

Pinion depth shim needed:

Pinion bearing preload:

Side bearing shim totals - Left side__________ Right side__________

Total bearing preload:

Use formula to figure out side bearing preload.


Total preload - pinion preload = ________ x axle ratio = side bearing preload.

__________ - ___________ = ________ x ________ = ____________

Side bearing preload:

Check backlash:

Check ring gear runout:

Check gear tooth contact pattern. OK_____ Not OK_____. If not OK, Re do the setup.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Old 08-29-2007, 09:51 PM
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setup bearing

a setup bearing is just a bearing with its inner dia honed out so it slides onto the shaft easily, that way you dont have to press the damn bearing on and off. k
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Old 08-29-2007, 09:53 PM
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rearend

yeah what ricky said
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Old 08-30-2007, 09:28 AM
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A super big lotta thank youse goes out to Ricky Rocket for concise, succinct, exacting, precise, real-good instructions on rear end assembly! At least six attaboys and a waytago! I'm thinking this is good stuff and will keep me from scrapping out my rear end before I put it in. Ricky Rocket, you tha-man!

Here I thought bolting that thing in would be hard to do. SHOOT! Thats nothing! Should be easy! A snap! A cinch! Just got to figure out how to get the pinion angle right, and, um, run the brake lines, and ah, the emergency cables, and ah the wheels, (cant forget the back side dimension and bolt pattern change from 5 to 4.5), and measure the drive shaft length right, (with what? 1310, or was it 1330 or 1350 U joints) and...and and....Well, heck-darn! I can worry about all that later!

R
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