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Old 08-09-2005, 02:09 PM
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Problem starting

Hi All,
1965 El Camino
New 350 SBC with all the fun stuff and a new Hitachi mini starter....
Now for the problem..
When I turn the key to start it really does not start until I release the key to
the ON position...
Is this an Ignition switch problem?

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Old 08-09-2005, 02:50 PM
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Starter

Doc here,

To recap...

Your Car CRANKS but won't fire until just as you release the key to the run position?

If so your secondary Ignition is not functioning..the wire that runs from the coil to the "I" terminal on the solenoid. Check to see that the wire is in place, and not burned, cut or frayed.

To test, just run a clip lead from the coil to the battery and crank, If it fires on the 1 st or 2 nd rotation..then it's bad..

What's happing in the start position, the key cuts OFF all power to the car, (lights go out, radio etc quits) The secondary ignition supplies uninterrupted power to the coil during this function , until the key is returned to "RUN" ..what your getting is the "Tail end" of spark as it passes back to run on what sounds like a well tuned engine..(I.E. it fires with just that fraction of a second of spark)

Look there first..Verify by putting a Volt meter on the coil BATT and turn the key on...should be 12 volts...then crank...It should NOT go away..during any cranking.

Doc
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Old 08-09-2005, 03:05 PM
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Doc....
You are correct it starts just as I release to the run position .

Since the Hitachi mini starter only has 2 post B & S do i connect the wire
from the coil to the S post on the starter?
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Old 08-09-2005, 03:14 PM
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Start

Doc here,

Looks like you'll have to run it to the "S" function..assuming the "B" function is the large battery terminal?

Or you COULD get a relay, hook the coil to ground, the other side to the "S" on the starter, and the contacts N/O, C/W to the battery, and coil respectively. either will work fine.

Doc
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Old 08-09-2005, 03:40 PM
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Ok....
Right now I have one of those ford remote solinoids...

I have it wired as described on this site, with the exception of the coil wire going to the I terminal of the remote solinoid.

I was kinda confused as what to do with the coil wire since I didnt have an
I terminal on the starter, so I went stright to the I terminal of the solinoid.

http://www.novaresource.org/starter.htm
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Old 08-09-2005, 04:03 PM
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Bad link

Doc here,

That link is inop..

However if you hooked it as described and still get the problem, just move the coil wire from the ford "I" terminal to the "S" on the mini~starter and you should be fine..abandon the Ford solenoid as it's not working and adding an extra step in problem solving..

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Old 08-09-2005, 04:36 PM
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Will Do.
Thank You so much Doc..
I have seen many of your responses to others and I am very
impressed with the knowledge you share with all.
You and others like your self make this site a great place to learn..
I truly respect your advice..
Thanks again for all your help.

One more time...
If it doesnt work cut & paste
check it out
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Old 08-09-2005, 05:26 PM
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Their wiring diagram is incomplete. Does not show the wire in the run position. It should have a wire from the run circuit going through either a resistor or resistance wire to the plus side of coil.

In reality their circuit shoud start the car and then when you let off it would die.

I have not read the text in that link, but I really dont see where adding the ford solenoid would really help. Although they are using a ford solenoid they are still using the GM integral solenoid. The only thing it can accomplish is increasing the current to the coil on the stock solenoid.

You said your car cranks and cranks and cranks and pops when you let off?

Rich

Last edited by rrmccabe; 08-09-2005 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 08-09-2005, 05:35 PM
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OK, I just looked at their text.

I dont agree with what they are saying.

Normally, your coil runs at reduced voltage to prevent points burning. They reduce the voltage with a resistor of some time. Usually a fixed resistor or resitance wire.

The "I" terminal on the solenoid is supposed to give you a full 12 volts when cranking to assist in starting.

They are acting like your solenoid runs off reduced voltage. This is just not the case.

Rich
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Old 08-09-2005, 05:38 PM
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Hi rrmccabe

One of 2 things happens.
1. It cranks and cranks and cranks sometimes it pops or
2. It cranks and cranks and cranks then starts just as I release the key.
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Old 08-09-2005, 05:47 PM
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Hi rrmccabe
Sorry about the incomplete information...
I am using a MSD ready to run distributor..no points.
and a MSD 6al box.....
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Old 08-09-2005, 05:47 PM
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Well assuming you are wired according to their plans (which I think are wrong), I think your solenoid may be defective.

The solenoid has a coil in it. When you run power from your crank circuit off ignition switch it does the following.

1) Mechanically engages the bendix so the starter engages with the flywheel.
2) Runs power from the BIG battery cable down to that metal tab coming out of top of starter that attaches to front of solenoid. (this powers the starter motor
3) Sends a FULL 12 volts back up to the coil from the "I" circuit which basically gives more voltage to the coil to start.

This is all it does. When I say 12 volts I am referring to battery voltage.

When you crank your engine, you should get 12 volts from the "I" terminal.

I am sure Doc will chime in but I really see no value in the ford solenoid. Its just a big relay that isnt doing much.

Rich

PS: OK on the MSD stuff but that really does not matter in this case. There are two circuits as doc mentioned. You need to have power in the run position and in the crank position. The resistor is for original ignitions.
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Old 08-09-2005, 06:03 PM
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i think i bypass the resistor wire..is that ok..?
The starter is band new and it only has a B terminal and a S terminal...
The reason for the Ford solenoid....the headers get the starter pretty hot and
is very slow in cranking when hot....Its fine when I first start it....
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Old 08-09-2005, 06:13 PM
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All the MSD's I have seen did not use a resistor. I cant speak for all models. Check your instructions. I cant imagine it requires a resistor.

Your original ignition switch is designed to be used with a solenoid with 3 connectors and is designed to only provide power to the coil (MSD in your case) half the time. The other half during start was supposed to come from the solenoid and since you got one without that terminal, you are missing that circuit.

Where is your power from your MSD coming from now?

I know what you mean about the headers. Back in the day when I ran headers I had the same issue. I still doubt the ford solenoid will help. I disagree with several things in that article.

I would get a 3 connector solenoid and be done with it. Or if your Ford solenoid has an "I" terminal you can use it.

Rich

PS: I think its just popping off because its getting a shot of power during the switch transition while still cranking. When you get back to run position if its still spinning the motor it will fire.

Last edited by rrmccabe; 08-09-2005 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 08-09-2005, 07:22 PM
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Hi rrmccabe
12 volts from ignition to the MSD box.
The Ford soenoid does have an I terminal...That where I have the wire from the coil connected to.

Its a brand new Hitachi High touque mini starter..How would I retro fit a 3 termnal solenoid..?
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