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  #151 (permalink)  
Old 05-02-2013, 10:05 PM
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jetting has to do with when you are driving, not idling. Driving at a fair speed 40+++mph. 2500++rpm steady
Anything below that is idle and off idle transition. NOT MAIN JET.

You need to get a boost retard box for this motor. This will allow you to get the idle spark advance up around 36deg BTDC @ idle. yet allow correct modest spark advance under Boost. WOT. (28-32deg) under boost.

The more idle timing you give it the nicer and cleaner the idle, on a Roots blower motor.

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  #152 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2013, 01:41 PM
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understood. think I may just install a simple toggle "on and off " dash mounted switch to my coil pack feeds which will not disturb the ecu but will interrupt the live trigger wire so the coil packs will not be live , then as you say after 3 revolutions just turn them back on. I would feel happier having the engine spinning as fast as it can on the starter motor before the spark comes in.

so am I correct in thinking I should have the secs throttle blades open just a little to allow some air in. I cant change the engine pitch and tone with the air mix screws , so im thinking the throttle blades are then open too much ?

lastly im now not sure if counter clockwise leans out my carbs ? with the air mix screws
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  #153 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2013, 04:40 PM
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If the output of this ECU is a capacitive discharge system to the coils you may not want to
do it with just a switch on the coil wire. If it is inductive discharge type you should be OK.

But use a good quality SPST switch rated at 15amps like I use on my GM HEI power wire.

For now do that and set all ECU timing values to 0. Then set the position of the Crank sensor on the crank to get a 30deg to 32deg basic setting...(that does not move with rpm) Then try 36deg BTDC (by moving the sensor mounting position relative to the crank)

What is /was the list number on the choke horns on your carbs? I forget.

( there is a possability this ECU has a built in retard fuction you can use for boost retard.
Leave that for now. No timing curve...no advance no retard just fixed timing for now
to get the carbs correctly dialed in.

Carb idle mix screws: normally clockwise is leaner... eg: list #1850 600cfm carb. Ther are reverse idle carbs
but these are marked on the metering block.
Most are normal direction for leaner clockwise.
The primary and secondary throttles idle postion must be correct, first.
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  #154 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2013, 04:45 PM
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I bet it will idle the nicest with the timing at about 36deg BTDC at idle.
Once you get all the throttles positined, the idle screws will be active.

This big idle timing really helps a Roots blower stay clean while warming up the blower case.
Keeps the plugs from fouling during warm up.
Fuel recondensation inside the big , COLD blower case is a big issue. Poor fuel mix/poor cold engine combustion.
The locked out timing really helps. Keep the rpm up during warm up too, but do not wack the throttle open when cold.

Do not operate at WOT under boost with 36deg timing. (without active boost retard)

Do not try to set it up indoors. Engines and humans don't do well by breathing exhaust gas.

verify the timing setting with a timing light,,,not the ECU,,,,for now.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 05-03-2013 at 04:56 PM.
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  #155 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2013, 05:09 PM
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ok got that . so lots of initial timing for dialling in the carbs only. no wot with no boost retard , will ask the guys about the boost retard , I am 100% it can be as I have a boost sensor already in the manifold and the ecu reads from it. but at the moment it read tps sensor first. I will ask if they can keep it at that but change some stuff to use the boost as a trigger to change the timing when needed. I like the idea of tps being the first source of reading as it reads load and not boost first.

so to clarify on the throttle blades, I am right in thinking the transition slots should be exposed just slightly ? is that on both primary and secs ? have been reading that to begin with close them all and see what it does. then if it requires more airflow then open up the secs first on both ?

the carbs are 1850 vac secs 600s I have 10.5 pv for now which I will put in . better than the 6.5s , also the carb seems to originally have 66 main and 73 sec jets from what I have found on the holley website. is it a good idea to start at that to begin with. ?

there is a good guy down the rd from me who is keen to use his lambda sensors and do a road trip to see what voltage reading we are getting. not so sure though based on what I have read with blower engines .

my crank sensor is fixed , so what I can do is cut and copy 30d and paste through the ign screen . so its that wherever and whatever load but will not change and will be at that degrees. . will find out if my idera with the toggle switch can work with my sytems.

what I have is 2x coil packs. that have a heavy red and neutral to them with smaller wires 2x to each which are trigger wires that the ecu sends a pulse down which in turn tells which coil pack to fire. so my way of thinking is to interrupt the heavy red and the ecu will still send a pulse signal but the coil pack will have no live to it until I switch it back on.
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  #156 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2013, 05:43 PM
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Just move the position of the crank sensor.
You do not need the TPS sensor or any of that junk. It is NOT EFI.
You got the wrong timing system for this simple blower motor.
Way too much tech to F^^^ UP.

All this motor needs to run is 36deg timing and some boost retard as boost comes in.

Does this ECU get the timing reference from the previous cylinder in the fireing order or something?

Why is the crank sensor mounting position not adjustable. make it adjustable. Thats how you adjust the basic timing.

These motors are dumb simple.

Why don;t you jsut buy and install a Dumb heated narrow band AFR gauge and O 2 sensor.. That is all you need.
You don't even need a wide band to dial in this motor. a narrow band a vacuum gauge and a timing light and boost retard and some jets is all you need to dial this in.
You got way too much Hi tech. EFI is going to be a big waste of money and time for nothing.

Blower motors do not idle or run at 14.7:1 afr. They want want they want for fuel. They are dumb stupid simple motors.

You want to start with slightly fat rich main jetting.. Lean cooks the motor. LEAN IS BAD.

Starting tuning with 11 psi of boost is crazy.

How the f888 are you ever going to dial in a EFI fuel table if you cannot handle a few carb mix screws?

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 05-03-2013 at 06:01 PM.
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  #157 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2013, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
Just move the position of the crank sensor.
You do not need the TPS sensor or any of that junk. It is NOT EFI.
You got the wrong timing system for this simple blower motor.
Way too much tech to F^^^ UP.

All this motor needs to run is 36deg timing and some boost retard as boost comes in.

Does this ECU get the timing reference from the previous cylinder in the fireing order or something?

Why is the crank sensor mounting position not adjustable. make it adjustable. Thats how you adjust the basic timing.

These motors are dumb simple.

Why don;t you jsut buy and install a Dumb heated narrow band AFR gauge and O 2 sensor.. That is all you need.
You don't even need a wide band to dial in this motor. a narrow band a vacuum gauge and a timing light and boost retard and some jets is all you need to dial this in.
You got way too much Hi tech. EFI is going to be a big waste of money and time for nothing.

Blower motors do not idle or run at 14.7:1 afr. They want want they want for fuel. They are dumb stupid simple motors.

You want to start with slightly fat rich main jetting.. Lean cooks the motor. LEAN IS BAD.

Starting tuning with 11 psi of boost is crazy.

How the f888 are you ever going to dial in a EFI fuel table if you cannot handle a few carb mix screws?
well thanks for that useful information . not exactly the answer to my question f bird.

look - can we finish this issue you have with the ecu as its getting boring . I asked about the advise as you seem to have experience on blower motors , its regarding the position of the throttle blades and transition slots in relation to getting a better idle. I don't want to start drilling out throttle blades until I know I have to .

this is a hot rodding forum . so we use what we have a trust me what I have is miles better than any old age dizzy , just because thats what you understand that fine. I am not knocking your opinion so please respect mine. don't try to understand the technology as the questions and statements show you haven't a clue. I do and if you say 36d no curve then I just tap a couple of buttons and its done . no stupid trimming light and moving of a dizzy which is a rough guess , and you cant say its exactly 36d btdc for 100% with that age old stuff. I can and that's what I want , sure you can get very close I know. but I can get a lot closer. how do you think the modern massive supercharged engines work - common rail engines ,with some 1600 psi of pressure in the injector rail , as they too have ecu and works the same. all engines principal hasn't changed -suck squeeze bang blow. so the way that they read the information has changed , its called development , technology .

as you asked I will explain this time only. ( not sure your actually interested or just trying to be awkward ? ) my ecu can read from either source , tps or map sensor ( boost ) at the moment it is from the tps sensor as I want to read with throttle not boost as im not dyno'ing just running in the garage to get idling better and off on to the primary's , I am not loading this motor up with boost . I have a 36-1 crank trigger wheel with 36 teeth and 1 missing , the 1 missing is tdc @ compression stoke and tdc at exhaust . the crank sensor is FIXED it cant move so again please don't state make it as that's just dumb . I don't need to make it move as I can change the timing alignment with a couple of buttons to where I want it. the engine is spot on in regards to tdc on compression @ no 1 . from that the ecu has a fire order sequence. that sends the signal to the appropriate coil pack and off the spark goes. with this I can programme in what ever I want . so the options are endless . currently I have a fail safe , which I wont go into explaining. I have 2x knock sensors which will retard as soon as any larger than normal knock or det sound occurs, boost gauge , heat gauge. oil gauge. water gauge at front of engine , water gauge at the back of engine. air pressure gauge. air temp gauge. tps. gauge, water meth activation gauge from map senor. maf gauge .

I take your points f bird on the efi and must say I would prefer carbs and I hope your right - but I didn't buy this ecu just for future use of efi .

so I respect your advise and experience , but please have some respect and don't write dumb stuff as I think you can do a lot better than that and its doesn't do you any favour's when read by others as I feel it discredits your views some what. can be seen as childish ,

so moving on - I am working on it tomorrow. I am trying to get the idle mix screws to respond better , so step by step . ( and leave off the ecu )

in your experience where would the best set be for the throttle blades ? how much transition slot exposed ? primary and sec ?

will change timing as you advise and see if that helps .

I asked a question about primary jets and that seems mine come standard with 65s I believe. as I have 70s should I leave alone or come down to 68s for now. and I understand im not at the primary stage yet . I know its a good bit of low end speed to get off the idle through the transition and onto the primary's , pv coming in when vacuum drops . I know all this .

understood on afr with lambda sensors. just so you know I can also fit wide band lambda sensors for the ecu to read - this can change the timing if it needs to be . with different seasonal changes and weather I have here also,

if you can shed some more light on those idle issues that would be appreciated . and im still not sure on screwing in idle mix screws for leaner , I will investigate further as im sure its screw in for richer. what year did they change this reverse system ,

cheers Shaun
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  #158 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2013, 04:05 PM
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hi all . not sure if you can view the video . will upload it not . cheers shaun
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Old 05-04-2013, 04:09 PM
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  #160 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2013, 06:54 PM
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The idle screws work like a water faucet,turn right to close and left to open more flow.
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  #161 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2013, 01:23 PM
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hi metal storm .

had a great day today , I changed the main jets from 70 to 68 . pulled in the secs throttle blades , and got the primary transition slots showing a square , changed the pv for 10.5s , and put the timing to 30d fixed . idles around 845 rpm , will get a vacuum gauge and fine tune the idle air bleed screws next weekend for the most manifold vacuum . but am happy with the idle speed to be honest . plugs 7 and 8 are playing up . they fire out outside the engine - have checked both and leads and with different plugs - but when running I can keep my hand on the exhaust headers ( mine are wrapped ) so def not sparking , expect they have fouled and fire with low resistance outside the engine but are weak inside , so off onto the primary circuit now , I was starting to lose the will to live , so any advise for the primary circuit ? off we go again back on it all next weekend as the misses is out on a jolly !!!


so I have been reading about doing a few runs a mid rpm and activating the primary circuit , then turning the engine off and coasting to a stop. and basically reading the plugs. so seems either this method or the dyno !! any easier or better ideas ? I have a guy who has wide band lambda sensors . but as its blown ( with good advise from f bird ) the afr will not be the same as most engines. seems the plugs wont lie . suppose it will do know harm to have the sensors as well to back up reading the plugs
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  #162 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2013, 01:32 PM
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oh I looked at my air mix screws , seems when screwing out ( COUNTER CLOCKWISE ) it allows more air in . so this would mean clockwise is rich and counter lean ?
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  #163 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2013, 05:47 PM
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Should be the opposite.. counter clock wise should richen the idle mixture
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  #164 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2013, 05:58 PM
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oh I looked at my air mix screws , seems when screwing out ( COUNTER CLOCKWISE ) it allows more air in . so this would mean clockwise is rich and counter lean ?
you will find out when it stalls the engine when it comes time to get best mix and vacuum and yes a o2 meter is allways good to use.
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  #165 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2013, 01:31 PM
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you will find out when it stalls the engine when it comes time to get best mix and vacuum and yes a o2 meter is allways good to use.
yep . will be doing that next weekend. i have the whole weekend to work on it. so i looked at the metering block and when screwed all the way in it appears to cut off air flow. which would mean its rich ? then as you screw out ( countyer clockwise ) it would alow more air in . leaner ?

but either way as you say i will find out with the lambda sensor . any tips on that ? the guy has a engine dyno but not a rolling rd dyno . and im not taking the sucker out now. so i aim to have it set on the primaries next weekend or the week after. then hope to work though the pvs and onto the secs before some harder pulls. will change the oil and filter before hard pulls.

getting there now.
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