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problems with running my supercharged 351w

47K views 176 replies 14 participants last post by  Mustang671 
#1 ·
hi all , have been posting for a while as i have been finishing my 67 eleanor mustang . i have a 351w supercharged engine with a 6/71 weiand super charger , spec below .

high volume canton sump with windage tray and scraper
high volume oil pump
re-ground balanced crank
crane supercharger crank specs are -- fair to moderate ride,3pm 3.400-3.800 cruise rates at 8.5-1 max
degrees duration 226d @ .05"
degrees advertised 286d @ .05"
lobe seperation 112d
open and close intake 6d and exhaust 40d
gross lift .502"

hydraulic lifters on roller rockers
forged rods with hyperutectic pistons ( keith blacks)
edelbrock performer heads (need to find the spec but are good for a blower)
high volume engine run fuel pump
weiand 6/71 blower with 2x holley 600 vac secs carbs

what i need help on now is your opinions on what jets i should be using as a starting point in the primarys and secoundaries ?

currently i have .72 in the primary metering blocks and .78 in the secoundaries .

i have adjusted the timming to be 28d advanced with a idle of 22d advanced ,
the problem i am having is the carbs are spitting and when the engine finally runs its lumpy as hell ( i know its got a lumpy cam but its more so than it should be )

it will not idle and i have to keep the revs high ( say 1500 to 1800 ) but it is still rough at that rpm

do you have any idea on if my jets are too big ? it doesnt change when i adjust the air mix screws . they are currently out 1 turn .

i have a omex ecu and can adjust the timing very easily ,

i have got to 2 x boses ready for lambar sensors for when i get it dynoed and have also fitted 2x heat sensors in the exhaust manifold ,

but before that i just want to get it running on idle , also i cannot start it with the choke on . i have to have the flaps on the carbs open, which tells me it needs lots of air -which i have heard most supecharged engines and high lift cam engines never use the choke ??

am getting really frustrated as the car is 99% finished and i just want to get it on the road for 6 weeks or so to get some miles on it before the snow and ice come in december . then i can store it up till spring and adjust and fix any problems.

boo hoo:confused:

cheers shaun
 
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#40 ·
cheers t bird , think we will have to agree to disagree on some of that . from what you have posted i do thank you for the figures and timing numbers. having not known each of our back grounds or knowing each other personally its hard to just read something off of a post and take it the way its meant . ( or how you mean it ) i feel i may have angered you . sorry if thats the case , i did ask you for some exact figures on timing. i do know how to progrmme the ecu and if you knew my back ground you would know i could. i do have a boost gauge in the manifold ( thanks for asking before presuming i didnt ) currently the ecu reads firstly from the tps and then the boost. this may be changed when the dyno shop tune it . these guys at the dyno shop do know how to tune blowers - they tune the drag cars for the uk santa pod market . the reason why i am asking is so I know and not some shop where i spend lots of money.

today i visited a friend who is building a ex formula 1 engine for a swiss client that was run at moanco and lemand this year. he also had a v12 aston martin engine on the bench for a rebuild. and numerous methanol tunning engines to service for next season. he also backed up all of yours and others timing figures.

if you can give me some exact figures like others are trying to do that would be most appreciated. as i said before i will not run this until its set up correctly and something the ecu will not allow and will turn off ,

the below is a rough guide as each engine will require what it wants

i have been told to crank from 0 to 450 rpm ( start up programme ) @ 10d then 10d to 20d up to 1000 rpm being the start of my ign curve- then a sharp curve from 1000rpm to 1500rpm @ around 28d then from 28d @ 1500 rpm to 2000rpm at 32 d then a flat curve ( which you refer to as locked out ? ) the reason why i am reading tps first is so when the boost builds we can dial in the boost paramter reading to scale down the ign to compinsate for the given amount of boost we have , also sometimes engines will be under boost but no throttle ( load ) how does a engine ign deal with that ? so thats why the tps is read first then backed up by the boost guage under the blower.

this all may change but its how its running now.

cheers shaun
 
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#41 ·
cheers - the dyno shop stock loads of accesories for holleys , so they have everything i need , thats great help on my sec plate as i did want to jet it . will have a look at the weekend .

also just to confirm i cannot use a distributer , i dont have the room so i cant stick one in,

i also have a ranges of jets from 70 to 80 ,they have all pv sizes ,

will get another set of plugs aswell .

cheers
 
#42 ·
hi guys.

i spoke with the ecu guys today @ omex and also spoke to the dyno guys.

they are going to change the way the ecu reads first. so instead of the "tps" sensor it will read from the "map" sensor and also they can set the ecu to change as the map sensor reads boost ,

i am going to set my timing up from what you have advised and run it on sunday and let you know how i get on, i am so busy with work so i dont expect i will get to the dyno shop next week. i think it will be the week after.

thanks for the carb advise. that helps with the sec plate as i would like to be able to jet it like a metering plate .

will do a vac test this weekend from under the carb and above the blower and let you know.

so from what you have all said it seems blown motors like mine rarely used chokes . so the choke flabs are to be fixed open always ?

i can get 98 octane fuel

when do you recoomend to get my water meth inj up and running ? its injected in the inlet manifold ( t bird ) will this still be beneficial for the blower heat ? understand it will help reduce detonation , its set to come in from 4psi and spray more water meth mix as the bost builds .

also i have a spring load toggle switch which over rides the system and allows me to pump as much water meth i want into the inlet - when would be a good time to use this ? i thought if i was going to do a santa pod run ? or when i am in traffic and the weather temp is hot hot ?

ok so 2-3 pumps of throttle ( cold ) and catch it and hold @ 2000 until it warms up. start up with 36 d btdc and its seems to want a pretty much flat timing curve with the ecu retarding the ign when boost comes in using t buirds figures for the amount of boost it shows.

any other advise on what figures to put into my ign table ? so ie @ 800 rpm and engine load 0 it will be around 36d btdc, but what about 800 rpm and engine load taken from tps sensors @ 50 % load and then @ 100% load. and etc etc for the rest of the rev range and rpm figures.,

i know it seems crazy to think that at 1000 odd rpm the engine load will be 100% but for that split secound when i floor it - it will probably be that
 
#43 · (Edited)
Just a couple thoughts...

If you have an automatic transmission w/a torque converter, the stall speed will see to it that you won't be fully loaded when you floor it from 1000 rpm.

Remember its boost that you're concerned with. Boost will build quickly when the engine is loaded- but not instantaneously. While boost is non existent or still very low, the timing can be higher. You want this so the engine can spool up using the right amount of ignition lead until boost sets in, then the timing is taken away as boost increases.

It's better IMO to have a tunable secondary block than using a 4160 secondary plate drilled to accept jets. The link is just one such example.

4150 style carbs can be mounted sideways to clear the rear bowls. Takes a different mount and linkage obviously. Enderle linkage shown on member Blown Camaro's photo below:

 
#44 ·
thanks cobalt , yes i am going to get the side mounted linkeage and i already have a secoundary metering plate to use . looking forward to tomorrow , will let you all know how i get on . am going to put some ign figures into my ecu .

where can i get the side mounted linkage from ?
 
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#48 ·
hi guys .

had a great day today . finally got it to idle for a while at 950 - 1000 rpm. eventually it burnt off the old oil and mosture from the engine where it had been sitting . i have put 2x videos below for you to see .

i do have 1x problem still. my neddle valves get stuck every now and then . i have set them, to just show the fuel level at the sight plugs . but sometimes while its running and i turn it off the electric fuel pump carrys on pumping fuel and out into the carb and out of the breather tube. hopefully its just a sticky needle valve, will replace them next weekend and see if that fixes it .

i am getting there now. i also jacked up the back and ran the trans and got around 6 litres of dex 2 atf oil in the c6 auto box. does that sound about right ?
cheers again :)







 
#50 ·
hi all . i have taken a video this weekend of my engine running with the vacum gauge rigged up to below the carbs but above the blower. there is a take off to the rear of the blower that i was able to screw a fitting into to get a take off for the vacum guage. so i have got the engine settled around 850-900 rpm and the vacum reading @ idle is 16-17 . so whats your thoughts on my power valve requirements ? cheers for all your help guys. i am well made up to have it starting and running smooth now. your posts really helped and have got me up and running. t bird . i went with your figures and they are fine at present and the engine is idleing a hell of alot better.

the video is here . cheers all

 
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#51 ·
cheers . will speak with the dyno guys as they have pv blanks and the higher jets. i am running around 11 psi which is better than what i thought at 14 psi . i do have a blower snout which is the retro looking one. is there any reason for cutting off the carb horns for any better set up ? or just coz you think they are uglily ? they will be covered by the blower snout anyway so wont be seen , i just dont put it on when running so i can see the boosters etc to make sure the needle valves have shut off
 
#53 ·
no not at this stage. i like the vac sec on a blower , as the blower can decided when they come on and i get better mpg around town etc. once dialled in they will be fine ,

regarding the cam , i specifically got this crane "supercharger cam " from them as it was a good moderate to fair ride cam for my set up. i didnt want a mad unrelistic cam. dont agree i am choking it. yes i agree there are bigger duration higher lift blah blah cams out there. but i want a reliable daily driver not some unrelistic strip car.

i have contacts in the film industry and concierge so i do want to use it commercially . something that would be more uncomfortable with a big arse cam.

again a matter of opinoin and not fact as are alot of mods on cars.

did you have any thoughts on my question earlier on my c6 oil capacity with a front mounted oil cooler ?

cheers shaun
 
#57 ·
Been following this thread and learning a lot :thumbup:
Hope you get it all worked out 671 and I have to agree with that cam not sounding to lumpy, hell mine fires like once every few seconds :D
I also have to agree with the sideways carbs, they fit and look quite well if done right, here's mine






Unfortunately you really cant hear the motor in that

Best Of Luck and hoping to hear you got it all figured out shortly
 
#58 ·
hi all .

been working on the car again today . so i pumped twice from cold. choke off secound turn of the engine and off it went. kept it for 1500 rpm for a moment and then it happily idled at 900 rpm.

looking forward to the dyno in a coulpe of weeks .

i will jump to another subject concerning my brakes. and will come back to you all when i get some updates after the dyno and i hope to get a video and some figures for you !!

last question until i come back to you.

currently i have millers running in oil. and i have now had the engine running and idleing for a bit. whats your opinions on keeping this oil in for when i go to the dyno ? i am in the mindset of running in the engine quickly and not over 1500 odd imiles as most stupid manufactures advise. bed the rings in quick under load before its too late. i have seen the evidence to make my mind up. so with that said would you recoomend this oil as it will alow this or a semi synthetic as the running oil i have is mineral !!

cheers all - and amazing advise.
 
#59 ·
hi all . had the engine running for a while today . sorted out my brakes but my alternator still isnt charging.

however the car didnt want to start when hot . and i got a back fire through the exhausts ( not the blower - that never happens now ) as i have a wasted spark system im thinking my mixture is too rich ??

am sure this will be sorted when im off to the dyno and they plug in their lambda sensors.

any ideas ? i didnt pump the throttle. went to catch a couple of times but nout . all good from cold . just when its hot

expect the pv will neede to be changed .

cheers
 
#60 ·
If you wire in an ignition interrupter, that will help the hot start problem.

It works by allowing the engine to be spun by the starter, w/o the ignition enabled. Then after the engine is spinning nicely, the momentary switch is released allowing the ignition to become hot and the engine fires.
 
#62 ·
You can take a good look at the plugs to see if they show signs of fouling. I wouldn't call it normal, at least not for a sorted out tune up. But seeing as how you're just beginning to get a handle on this, I'd say it wasn't that unusual. Especially if its only been idling and no real load/heat put on it. Before changing anything on the tune up, try the interrupter first. If you still have the same issues then you can get further into it.
 
#63 ·
thanks guys . great help . im going to leave well alone now as i dont like back fireing as i know it kills pv.s i have a couple of bits to sort and finish on the car and then i will get to the dyno . in the mean time i will get some extra plugs etc. the dyno shop stock all holley parts so they just suggested i bought what i had so i can use my stuff before being billed for using theirs .

firebird i am **** scrared of cutting off my choke horns - carb horns . are you 100% sure and i will never need a choke ? even when i go to spain and weather is hot and humid ?

if so are you able to draw a diagram, of where you suggest or explain ?

also what oil would you reccomend me using on the dyno for the first session. i currently have millers running in oil which is very new and i have changed the oil filter aswell .

i have been using 98 octane all the time and agree with the -+2 point.

i also blend bio fuels and blend waste oils for my diesel work vans. so a bit of a chemist at the weekends

i have checked my oil level and its consistant so i am sure i have no bore wash and the coolant has racing grade antifreeze and i have twin elec fans on the front. which way should these flow ??? pushing air onto the raditors ( ie the way the atmoshere would hit the car - currently the way its set up ) or opposite so as to pull the heat away from the raditor which seems harder work but i know of it to have been done by some .

cheers all . am getting there week by week , xmas should be fun if its dry and nice as i have 2 weeks off.
 
#64 ·
ok i get the picture , yes i did start it with a couple of pedals then once it caught i held it for say 30 secs then i let it idle. so i will hold it and let it warm up in the future.

the running in oil and filter have probably had only 10 minutes of use at the most .

the reason why i ask is - do you think the millers running in oil is ok for the first dyno session or would you reccomend a more conventional oil. i like the idea of the rings bedding in quickly and not having too much lubrication , the guys at the dyno said once its fueling correctly they can run it in over a few stages over a 30 min period and run it in,

they then said it would be normal practice to change the oil once i have been to the dyno .
 
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#76 ·
Not know a single one of you boys on this thread but thought I had best chime in . . . . . .

Mustang 671, in watching this thread, I think that F-bird is just trying to make sure you are aware of some of the stuff that he has knowledge of.

I have not seen anything he posted that was not correct.

You have a lot of "bells and whistles" on your rig that, for sure, will create a bunch of headaches and destroyed parts if not careful.

The "hyper vs. forged" decision is liable to give you pin bosses pulled out of the pistons, seen too many of them happen that way. And a huffer will really put lots of heat into the crown / ring pack area, adding to the problem.

He suggested changing the oil, most likely because it sounded like the raw fuel has most likely gone past the rings and thinned the oil.

Look . . . . , nobody wants to see you have problems with your ride. But you seem to be sort of hard-headed to fixing the possible issues you are seeing.

So . . . . . just how far of a road trip is this Spain you write of???

Take care, K
 
#65 ·
671,
I didnt have a choke on my 461 ProStreet Nova, or my 383 ProStreet Ranger, nor do I have chokes on the (2) 750's on my ProStreet 502 Sierra w/ a 871.
I live in NY and it's cold as a MF here for months and outside a few extra minutes of warm up there is no problem starting or driving them without the choke.

BTW I also have a Supercharged 351W in my 93 Lightning but I'm running a 2.2 Kenne Bell Supercharger w/ Fuel Inj and a late model Bronco Computer so unfortunately I got nothing to share on that set up. You seem to be slowly dialing it in by fixing & adding things along the way but I got to agree that you need a 750 DP SC Carb (w/ no Choke) and you should make the change before it goes on a Dyno.
 
#66 ·
Computers are for porn searching.... even in Spain. Didn't any body tell you that?

f bird what on earth are you on about ? this is a forum for hot rodders right ? well please act like one. you have helped me alot ( along with many others on this thread) but you seem to have this unneccesary side to you that not only i have witnessed. if you cant post normal replies to help out than i would rather you didnt to be honest .

millers is a brand name ok ??? just like castrol -yada yada yada. but forget the brand name . my questions that i was trying to get anwsered was - would you reccomend a running oil for "running in on a dyno " or would you reccomend a more conventional oil ?

PRO STREET thanks for the advise . sounds like you have a nice selction of toys there . i would be interetsed in your 351w spec ?

also i take the point on the 750dp carb . and will see how i go . i have read alot from pat ganahl who is a well known engine and blower builder - he also reccomends the set up i have for "street supercharging " i am not interested in the strip with this car-as i am also building a porcshe 928 350 chevy nitros for that- but that is for another topic - i want the secoundaries to come in when the blower wants them to . and i know i can get these carbs set up for a good street run set up and with good ecomony ( well as best as can be expected with a blower :) )

thanks for your help .

am back on it tomorrow .
 
#67 ·
Computers are for porn searching.... even in Spain. Didn't any body tell you that?

sounds like you have a nice selction of toys there . i would be interetsed in your 351w spec ?
Nothing wrong with a little Hot Babe porn :D and I do agree with you about computers, NOTHING is worse than being at the mercy of a Tuner :mad:
I probably felt different when my old 00 Lightning was running 9's at 140 MPH and I was driving it to and from the track but I have friends that give up their vehicles for 6 months to get tuned and that is absolutely INSANE and unacceptable. I bought this Lightning mostly as a tow vehicle and also to have a fun vehicle to drive more often. The Sierra only comes out on the SPECIAL DAYS.

The set up is nothing to crazy, just a fun performance truck I can drive anytime and anywhere and also do some towing

1993 Ford Lightning
High Output 5.8L w/high-silicon aluminum hypereutectic pistons 8.8:1
Hydraulic flat-tappet camshaft, duration is 260 degrees intake, 274 exhaust
Aluminum Trick Flow Heads
Scorpion Performance Roller Rockers
Kenne Bell 2.2 Blowzilla Supercharger
Kenne Bell Boost-A-Pump w/ In Cab Control
Accufab 75MM Throttle Body
Pro-M 92MM MAF
Ford Racing 30 lb Injectors
3.5” Cold Air Intake System

Built E4OD Transmission

8.8 Rear 4.10 Posi

MSD Boost Timing Master Control (#5462) w/ In Cab Control
MSD Street Fire Coil
Late 90’s Bronco Computer (302 E4OD)
Bassani Equal Length Headers
Bassani Off Road X Pipe w/Cat Delete
Bassani Cat Back w/ (2) Side Outlet Tips

Looks pretty dam good for a 20 year old tow vehicle :D
And I can make all the adjustments I need to by simply turning a couple of knobs ;)



 
#68 ·
nice ride pro street

an nice engine spec. sounds a good match. i am glad to hear you also have hyper pistons. i like them too . how are you getting on with them ? had any det on them yet ?

what boost you running ?

i have booked the dyno for the first dyno run after xmas week . i am so busy with work and want it to be a nice experience and not a stress full one .

pics of sierra ?

i have just got my billet bonnet hinges and a 100amp polished chrome alternator. looking forward to fitting at the weekend
 
#69 ·
hi all . thanks for all of your help - posts- advise and being there to listen and answer my questions. i drove it yesterday fro the first time in my life . been 10 yrs in the making and am so happy with it. am off to the dyno week after xmas , but for now its running nice and idiling sweet,

will post again after x mas when im back from the dyno

cheers all . have a good xmas break

my new billet hood hindges



bought a new 100 amp alternator











video of it running and walk around the car


engine running and walk about
 
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