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Old 12-11-2003, 01:57 AM
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Putting water in the intake???

I have an older friend of mine who has worked on cars for years tell me that back in "the old days" people would dump water down the top of the carburetor or intake to clear the engine of carbon deposits. He said it would work the same as sea foam and was used the same (except don't put it in gas!!). Although I don't think this is recommended I wonder if it really works?? Anyone ever heard of this? If it were me I wouldn't want water getting sucked into my engine, even if it did knock out the carbon. Clean air and fuel only! I would think it would cause spark problems, but supposedly when combustion occurs the water turns to steam and works it's way out the exhaust.

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Old 12-11-2003, 02:06 AM
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I have done it myself. It is the poor man's carb cleaner.
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Old 12-11-2003, 03:40 AM
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I would be weary of putting water in the intake. Water doesn't compress like an air/fuel mixture. (Think of water pipes bursting in the winter.) That being said, I'll stick with the genuine engine cleaning pruducts.
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Old 12-11-2003, 04:34 AM
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I've seen it done QUITE a few times in the Auto Zone parking lot (I worked there for 3 years), and I've done it myself on old beaters that I didn't care about. I never had any negative results, but I would still hesitate to do it to any motor that I gave a rat's *** for.

Here's a good writeup about it:

http://cartalk.cars.com/Columns/Arch...tember/02.html

345Coupe---This is off-topic, but I noticed you said "weary". I think you mean "leery" or "wary". "Weary" means tired/exhausted. "Leery" and "wary" mean cautious.

I promise you I'm not trying to be a *****, either, I just wanted to give you a heads-up so you know the correct word for future reference... in case you are ever talking to an English professor or anything, lol.

Last edited by Magnum Rockwilder; 12-11-2003 at 04:34 AM.
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Old 12-11-2003, 05:50 AM
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Works like a charm, as long as you do not drown the engine. In WWII fighter aircraft it was a common practice to use a water/methanol injection to boost power temporarily. Side benefit was it cleaned carbon off the pistons and combustion chamber. It works much better and is better on the environment than auto trans fluid.

Vince
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Old 12-11-2003, 06:31 AM
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Ever heard of water injection? Used to be used on N/A engines to boost power and prevent detonation, but today is primarily used on supercharged and turbo engines. Water will burn, and will not hurt the engine. Water actually becomes part of the combustion process and acts to slow and stabilize it. It is can be used up to 1:1 with gasoline. You need to keep in mind that at idle the engine is using very little fuel so you will want to add just a little at a time. More should not hurt as long as you dont go crazy, but it might kill the engine. If it were me, I would get someone to hold it at a very high idle to increase cylinder pressure and fuel consumption. It will help burn the water better. Dont be surprised if the engine bogs a little, you are effectively making the fuel mixture richer.

Chris
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Old 12-11-2003, 09:47 AM
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Water can't burn in the classic sense, since 'burning' means oxidizing of a fuel such as carbon or hydrogen and water is already hydrogen oxide! It will not give off heat when exposed to oxygen and an ignition source. However it will absorb heat and vaporize (the basis of the 19th century industrial revolution!) in presence of high temperatures in the combustion chamber. In effect, the proper rate of water injection should boost power by turning the engine into a pseudo-steam engine. I have also heard all my life that it is a good de-carbonizer.

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Old 12-11-2003, 10:07 AM
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Steam clean your compustion chamber

It works, one small Coke bottle full of water, somebody reeving up the engine a little and a thumb over the bottle opening and start pouring in the water. Don't stall the engine, with a little practice you can do it by yourself. First saw it done with an old Ford tractor. If you have been running a rich mixture and want to clean everything out it will do the job and cheaply too. Oh yea, change your oil, the gas has diluted your oil and filter. Smell the dip stick, you'll smell the gas if you have been running rich.


Todd


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Old 12-11-2003, 01:11 PM
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Here we go againe This is another old Farts fix, It does not work and it never worked. Best you will do is punch a hole in your pistons.

Last edited by Auto-Part; 12-12-2003 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 12-11-2003, 01:36 PM
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I had a Datsun pickup that I had built up for high performance, My dad told me about water injection. I made my own from a vacuum switch a small atomizer and the windshield washer bottle and pump. It worked great, knocking went away on lower octane gas and when I looked at the inside of the engine the valves were as clean as could be.

Now on the negative side I tried to dump water down the intake on my Ford 351M, I used to much water and it equaled a bent push rod. New molly rods and the engine was as good as new.

The key here is DON'T over do it, less is more. NOW on newer engines water will kill an O2 sensor.

Regards
Mark
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Old 12-11-2003, 01:43 PM
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On these newer engines, just looking at it will kill the O2 senser!!


LOL


Todd


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Old 12-11-2003, 01:43 PM
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I'll be darned. You learn something new every day. Now that it has been explained, I can see the benefits.


Magnum- I apologize for my misuse of "weary" over "wary". At 4:40 AM, my synapses are not firing at peak efficiency. Perhaps we need a grammar checker as well? LOL.
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Old 12-11-2003, 02:05 PM
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liquids don't compress unless they get atomized into gas. If you dump too much down there you can go into hydrolock and break a rod. Be careful.

K
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Old 12-11-2003, 03:40 PM
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In the late 60s early 70s GM sent a bulletin to the dealerships on the procedure to decarbonize there v/8 engines. as in the earlier posts you sprayed or trickled water in the carburetor while holding the rpm up high enough to keep it from stalling. They also sold a water injector system over the counter.

Troy
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Old 12-11-2003, 04:04 PM
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Not so fast Willys......Read this

Okay, with some data to back my statement here goes:

From the site, http://not2fast.wryday.com ,I pulled this information which talks about the breakdown and addition of elements when water is involved in combustion. It is a popular post on a mailing list you will often get pointed to in the turbo/efi/wi online circles. For those of you chemist I am sure it will make perfect sense. For me......I get it, but could not prove or disprove.

Enjoy!

Chris

------------------------------

From: Robert Harris <bob@bobthecomputerguy.com>
To: DIY_EFI@lists.diy-efi.org
Subject: Water and its effect on combustion.
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:24:08 -0700
Message-ID: <9ptjms0uu4oe292mpk6a6vhm2hn8bu9h1j@4ax.com>

Let us take a quick look at ignition. Those who have a Heywood can look it up
- mines on loan so going by memory. The first thing that happens is a plasma
cloud is formed by the arc consisting of super heated electron stripped atoms.
When this cloud "explodes" a ball of high energy particles is shot outward.

The highest energy particles are the hydrogen atoms - and they penetrate the
charge about 5 times as far as the rest of the particles. As they lose energy
and return to normal temps - about 5000 k - they begin to react chemically
with any surrounding fuel and oxygen particles. The effectiveness of spark
ignition is directly related to the availability of free hydrogen. Molecules
containing tightly bound hydrogen such as methanol, nitromethane, and methane
are far more difficult to ignite than those with less bonds.

During combustion - water - H2O ( present and formed ) is extremely active in
the oxidation of the hydrocarbon. The predominate reaction is the following:

OH + H ==> H2O
H2O + O ==> H2O2
H2O2 ==> OH + OH
Loop to top and repeat.

The OH radical is the most effective at stripping hydrogen from the HC
molecule in most ranges of combustion temperature.

Another predominate process is the HOO radical. It is more active at lower
temperatures and is competitive with the H2O2 at higher temps.

OO + H ==> HOO
HOO + H ==> H2O2
H2O2 ==> OH + OH

This mechanism is very active at both stripping hydrogen from the HC and for
getting O2 into usable combustion reactions.

Next consider the combustion of CO. Virtually no C ==> CO2. Its a two step
process. C+O ==> CO. CO virtually drops out of early mid combustion as the O
H reactions are significantly faster and effectively compete for the available
oxygen.

Then consider that pure CO and pure O2 burns very slowly if at all. Virtually
the only mechanism to complete the oxidization ( Glassman - Combustion Third
Edition ) of CO ==> CO2 is the "water method".

CO + OH ==> CO2 + H
H + OH ==> H20
H2O + O ==> H2O2
H2O2 ==> OH + OH
goto to top and repeat.

This simple reaction accounts for 99% + of the conversion of CO to CO2. It is
important in that fully two thirds of the energy of carbon combustion is
released in the CO ==> CO2 process and that this process occurs slow and late
in the combustion of the fuel. Excess water can and does speed this
conversion - by actively entering into the conversion process thru the above
mechanism.

The peak flame temperature is determined by three factors alone - the energy
present and released, the total atomic mass, and the atomic ratio - commonly
called CHON for Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen. The chemical
reactions in combustion leading to peak temperature are supremely indifferent
to pressure. The temperatures and rates of normal IC combustion are
sufficient to cause most of the fuel and water present to be dissociated and
enter into the flame.

As can be seen above, water is most definitily not only not inert but is a
very active and important player in the combustion of hydrocarbon fuel.
Ricardo and others have documented that under certain conditions ( normally
supercharged ) water can replace fuel up to about 50% and develop the same
power output, or that the power output can be increased by up to 50% addition
of water. This conditions were investigated by NACA and others for piston
aircraft engines. It is important to note that these improvements came at the
upper end of the power range where sufficient fuel and air was available to
have an excess of energy that could not be converted to usable pressure in a
timely manner.

As a side note - Volvo recently released some SAE papers documenting the use
of cooled EGR to both reduce detonation and return to a stoic mixture under
boost in the 15 psi range - while maintaining approximately the same power
output. Notice - they reduced fuel and still get the same power output.

When you consider that EGR consists primarily of nitrogen, CO2, and water ( to
the tune of about two gallons formed from each gallon of water burned ), you
might draw the conclusion that it also was not "inert". They peaked their
tests at about 18% cooled EGR - which would work out to about 36% water
injection and got about the same results under similar conditions that the
early NACA research got.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jag Daddy
Now on the negative side I tried to dump water down the intake on my Ford 351M, I used to much water and it equaled a bent push rod. New molly rods and the engine was as good as new.

The key here is DON'T over do it, less is more. NOW on newer engines water will kill an O2 sensor.

Regards
Mark
Just curious how it bent a pushrod.........

Also, If water is broken down and the elements burned as stated in my above post, how would this hurt O2 sensor.

Just curious.

Chris
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