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Old 03-09-2008, 01:11 PM
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Quarters installed

Ok well l'm not sure if this is a ***** session or a question but here it goes, l've been working and welding on cars for many years now, and my kids are growing up(all girls) so one of the girls has a boyfriend(22) and he works in a bodyshop(3 plus years) they work on some expensive vehicles there! So anyways l'm builting a Z-28(78) and its been a little bit of a motionvation problem with it(weather) but l'm at the place to replace the rear quarters, front ends done, fenders, doors, cowlings, etc and l redone the inter-fenders on rear, so this kid comes along and says to me that he could do the quarters, so l said have you done them before at the shop? ya hes says go a good grade on it, and have done quite afew, ok l said then next weekend come over and you can go at them! thinking to myself this is great, he can deal with the crap of fitting them. So he show up, l go to the shop and show him where everything is, and he's standing there, with a dumb look on his face, ok, me alarm goes off, ok l said to him, l probably making you nerves so l' ll go to the house, l'm still trusting in that he knows what he's doing(stupid) so now l'm in the house on the computer(hotrodders) and l'm getting nerves, so l go out to the shop, and hes on the ground with the replacement quarter, looks like hes wrestling with the quarter!! l go what are you doing? trimming it, so at this point l'm getting alittle pissed(steaming) so l look at the panel and its scratch to f... and got 2 dents in it, now l'm thinking l guess l'll have to help(show) him do this, now l've been told by my 2 ex's and this wife, that l should never teach anyone(temper), l guess l have the old thought, if you want it done right do it yourself!! So l show him how take the dents back out and fit it and l let him drill the holes to butt plug the panel on the door post and inner and he wants to drill them out to 1/2 inch and threw the new panel and the metal that there being fitted against, so l stop that thought and get him going in the right direction, so we tac it on, the only thing that l think was ok is his welding after l set the mig up and explain about the distance to stay away from the metal,(l had to keep clean the tip as he was lying the tip on the metal) it puddled nice for the butt welds! So after all this, my question is do people not get real training anymore? Next the panel doesn't look pretty, should l live with it? l can fix it, but l kind of like to teach him a lesson by cutting it back off before he finishes welding it on? lt won't be a cheap lesson but apparently the shop he works at isn't teaching him ****! l read a thread about a year ago on here, about a guy that did great work(tinsmith) and l told this kid about that work and he was just in aw of it, but l can't find it now.HELP would be nice on that!!!! UNSURE OF WHAT TO DO? l'm not a pro, just a guy that took alot of night school years ago for mechanics, welding and bodywork. Or is there no hope for our future gen? Thanks for reading my mouth off !!!!! TROY

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Old 03-09-2008, 06:34 PM
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Depending on what he took for schooling, its possible he didn't have to replace a welded on panel, and if a fairly young collision repair grunt, possible he hasn't had the call to replace a quarter, or drill out spot welds and plug something in. Also adhesives are more widely used now as well, as well as working in a specialized area. Not many combo guys who take thier job start to finish like when I started. I got the crap jobs starting out, but also did end up having to patch up a rusty crx(shop manager CLAIMED he couldn't get a new quarter for it) at the dealership making patches and welding them in right out of school. The thing was gone and could tell it had been replaced once already by someone, obviously not hearing of corrosion protection. I mean it was pretty bad, wheelwheels all gone, all the way gone below the bumper cover. On the other hand, I think I've only had to replace one door skin ever in the shops I've worked.

Place a new guy in a shop will most likely start out is washing and detailing cars and sweeping floors and taking out trash till he graduates to sanding and prepping cars or something, Could be awhile before they are given doing metal work that involves cutting, welding and fitting metal.

Just be glad he has an interest in the work at all. Sad fact is far less are becoming techs these days, as the money for the work often isn't there. Can sit down behind a desk or computer in a clean environment and likely make far better money then rolling around in dirt and sniffing fumes. Sad thing as Many won't even last three years before they find out there are easier jobs with better money. Or if they do stay in it, they leave for a different shop to get a pay increase and hoping it will be better. Others like me were never smart enough to get out while still young, and its about the only thing we know.

And the kind of attitude you seem to give off with this young kid "and cut it off just to teach him a lesson" is the kind of shop managers out there have (and I've personally knew some like that more wanting to ***** and show a temper, while you recieve ****ty pay to hear it, I didn't stay at those places long, and by the sounds of it, your trying to help contribute to him wanting to do something else.
If you expected everything to be perfect, If you really knew how to do the work, why didn't you either do it yourself, or bring it to a shop with a good reputation at a 60/hr shop rate(or whatever they are) instead of have some young kid come out and do it (I just bet you were going to pay him close to what a restoration shop would charge), and expect after 3 years in a shop him to have the skills of some old craftsmen?

Okay, how long have you been writing? I want Jon to take down your whole post to teach you a lesson. I also want to introduce you to this old timer writer dude. He is really skillfull at using paragraphs.
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Old 03-09-2008, 07:05 PM
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RE: quarters installed

Boys who crapped in your cereal this morning?(Kenseth17) l asked a question and get a big spill about life! And my writing, sorry not pencil pusher! Oh by the way the kid wanted to do it maybe to impress his girlfriends father? l guess you've never been in that boat!! Also he said he could do it, which turned out to be not quite true!(END OF PARAGRAPH) l wasen't making fun of him just asking a guestion on how to go forth, and l did show him how to go about it! But for people to understand you need the details and that l gave! l didn't yell or even show him l was pissed, just showed him the right way to go about it, and why would l take it to a shop to get them to do it when l'm more then capable of doing it?(END OF PARAGRAPH) lf you don't like the way l work this computer feel free not to answer with belittling, this is not the place to mud throw!!An as far as asking Jon to take the post off, because of the no paragraghs(now your making no sense) PLEASE TRY AND BE MATURE ABOUT THINGS!!! TROY
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Old 03-09-2008, 07:18 PM
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Depending on the shop he is in, they may not do many quarters at all. On the other hand, they may do some in the shop, and that work is given to someone with more experience. In the shop I'm in, I do most of the hardest hits. I have not done but 1 pick-up bedside in the last 1 1/2 years, but there have been several done. Unless the management is comfortable with his ability, they may not give him quarters to do.

Most young people in collision shops now days do not know how to do real body work as I knew it when I started. They only know how to beat on a panel for a little while, then cover up their mess with bondo. Some are very artistic as they can sculpt a fender out of bondo a whole lot faster than I can. They were not taught to be craftsmen, and it's all in what they were taught.

Aaron
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Old 03-09-2008, 07:31 PM
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RE:Quarters installed

Hi adlkart thanks for answering one of the questions, l guess part of the problem is l expect to much, as 20 years ago it was all about art!(no bondo) l know things change an l've even done cold weld panels but he said he could do it, so l trusted him, like l said l can fix the quarter, but is that teaching him the proper lesson or should it be cut off and me take him threw it step by step or let him finish next weekend(welding)? its only tacked for now! l'm not a pro or a teach but he is a great kid, he's the one that dad's like to see there daughters marry. l don't what to come of as a jerk to him but he does need to know how to do it within 95% correct! THANKS TROY
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Old 03-09-2008, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by kenseth17
Okay, how long have you been writing? I want Jon to take down your whole post to teach you a lesson. I also want to introduce you to this old timer writer dude. He is really skillfull at using paragraphs.
LOLOLOL, Troy, come on now, you have to admit, that's pretty funny.
It was a joke man, don't take it so seriously.

On your young man, I can't see what he was doing, I really don't know how bad it was because you aren't a bodyman in todays world. Things are done differently than when I started 30 years ago too. A Young kid at the shop where I work (23 years old) has only been doing it for a year and a half or so and he is miles from a journeyman tech. However, compared to how I was hanging quarters 20 years ago with 10 years experience he does a MUCH better job! We did things different, we spliced a lot, We (stupidly) butt welded seams on a "section" job instead of replacing the whole panel. These young men where I work (there are three apprentices with less than four years experience do some pretty good work. All three of these guys blow away the collision body work that I was doing with the same time on the job. They are all AWS (American Welding Society) certified and REALLY do a damn good job especially compared to what it was like in body shops when I was there age. Yes they have a lot to learn but things are much different than 20 years ago so you have a lot to learn too.

If I saw what these kids are doing when I was their age I would have critiqued them too! In other words, you may not know what you are looking at and he maybe was doing it RIGHT! Things change, the have changed a LOT. If I would have saw a painter prepping a blend panel with a scuff pad on a sander I would have crapped!

There is one guy at the shop who had been a helper for a few years and just a year and a half ago came to our shop as a bodyman. He is amazing, he does the best work in much less time than anyone in the shop including me. He blows us all away and has almost zero come backs of any kind.

So, yes these young men are being taught, maybe not in your area? Maybe just at that shop, I don't know. But they are being taught. And to tell you the truth, as I said, I think they are much better in a lot of respects. In others, maybe not. But I think across the board years ago there were guys who didn't care, and there still are. But I think the guys that are in it for the long haul are pretty good.

Encourage him, this is a great trade that will never be sent over seas! This is not a beat up Troy post, I am just "keeping it real".

Brian

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Old 03-09-2008, 09:05 PM
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Re: Quarters Installed

Hi Thanks MARTINSR ya maybe your right an things change for the better but like l said before he's been at it for 3 plus years so l quess l'll let him finish that one his way an see, but its on your shoulder!!lol l only know how l was shown and in my mind thats the only way! But l do known there is always 2 ways to skin a cat! So l'll pray! And l can always fix it myself! But thanks for the push in the right direction!!!!!!!!! TROY
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Old 03-10-2008, 12:31 AM
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LOLOLOL, Troy, come on now, you have to admit, that's pretty funny.
It was a joke man, don't take it so seriously.
I was only kidding, hense the smiley face. I am not the best speller in the world, and have at times written with run on sentances with no paragraphing. Very hard to read and follow though. You got overly offended about a few negative statements, I was just stating my opinion, not attacking you.

I was just pointing out, that by how you came off in your post, its not going to help the young guy any if you belittle him, get angry, and tear it off in front of him to make a point. If you can teach him a better way of doing it, then by all means, its how you learn. Sad to say, in many shops there are just part replacers today, and being fairly new he probably doesn't replace a lot of quarters, It also doesn't seem to take all too much to total something out, with far less repairing going on, or with multiple skill sets.
My dad, I quit asking for a hand if I needed one when working on a car. He has no patience and gets upset right away, would have had trouble being a bodyman. Because of that, and usually have a lack of a helping hand, I started figuring out a way to do everything myself. Like to hang a somewhat heavy mustang hood and get over the hinges, hang from the rafters and swing it up over the hinges with one hand, while rolling the car forward in neautral.
I still don't claim to know a lot or have done a lot, but compared to what I knew when I was his age, I feel I know quite a bit more. You learn mostly by making mistakes and takes many years of picking up tips from others and through trial and error.
I guess my point is whats done is done, and no sence in getting overly upset about it. Everyone f's up every now and then, and why don't you do him a favor while hes offered to help you out with something "you are lacking motivation on" and if you can give him some useful tips to help him learn, do that instead of getting all angry and upset about it, and figure out the best way to fix it. Also, do you know how well the quarter was going to fit? Any chance he was trying to adjust it to make it fit properly, not all parts just aren't stamped correctly or the correct size. Some people would probably freak out if they seen some stuff adjusted to fit correctly in shops (An old boss of mine use to buy certifit parts). Maybe he just gets enthused about older cars (that can get you into trouble and a lot of work) or something, offered to help his gf father out, and just got a bit over his head. I really doubt you were paying the young man chip foose bucks to help you with the old Pontiac. Do him a favor and don't over react. Guess I took it wrong what you meant when you said cut of the quarter to teach him a lesson. I thought it was just meant to belittle him, as in I'll teach him a lesson and cut off his work right in front of him and show him I am unhappy. If the purpose was meant to show him how you would replace it so you can explain and teach him the way you learned over the years and he can pick up some tips, then that is totally different.
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Old 03-10-2008, 10:46 AM
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RE:Quarters installed

Hi KENSETH17 Ya l'm sorry about getting upset, but l'm lookiing for the answers of what to do about this and it's not a joking matter to me.Ya Ya lighten up l know! Here's the problem, he's a good kid, smart and l think he is going place's if he puts his mind to it, but everything that l saw was not the way that l was shown(pros) 20 years ago but like Martinsr said things have changed! l'm not saying that my way is the right way.(todays world) But if its work for you 10 times in the passed with minimal or no bodo(which l can't stand) isn't that the better way! l've never liked change as l'm always unsure of it like to stick to what l know! And know he wasen't getting paid for it that he knew of but in the end l was going to give him some but knowing him he would have refused it, l'm pretty sure he just wants to help and maybe drive it when its done! lts a BB with around 515 to 535 HP, and its just a beater for me, something to burn the tires off so l leave my other ones intac, but it still has to look good! As far as the part it fit good just one spot that it was off, easy fix, and as far as the part getting cut back off, l'd sooner cut it off, pay the money for another and go threw it with him, to show him point A to B, that way he will have a choice, the old way or the new way! lt is not always the easiest and fastest way that is the worst or best! IT'S PRIDE IN YOUR WORK!! without it what do you really have at the end of the day? Here he makes $20.16hr and the shop rate is over $100 so there is money to be made in this! l'm thinking about get him a job at a buddies that does alot of show cars(old school) where there shop rate is off the chart($180) but man they built sweet stuff out of junk, but l don't want it to bite me in the a.. l've talked to him about it, and he seems really keen on it, but l just need to see his work first, so l'll let him finish this quarter,he still has to bead it an seal it and we will go from there! THANKS TROY
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Old 03-10-2008, 08:03 PM
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Troy.... As was pointed out, there are usually more than one way to do things. In this area, people in the automotive trades are normally very mobile, as in, there is a reason people have wheels on their toolboxes. There is one big advantage to that, in that you get a chance to learn from many different people in a very short time.

Another thing to consider is that there is what I consider the "right way" and there is also "the collision shop way" to do things. I am training my son in the field right now at work. Often I have to make sure that I point out that we have to do things differently at work than we do at home, when we are only working on "classics" or "customs". The cars are built completely differently, and the repair proceedures are different too.

Aaron
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Old 03-11-2008, 07:37 AM
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RE:Quarters installed

Hi l get you adtkart! THANKS TROY
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Old 03-11-2008, 08:08 AM
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Aaron, I know what you mean in the general sense. There are as many different shops as there are people in this business. Some "restoration" shops are hacks, some "collision shops" are hacks.

I started out in this business working at a full on restoration shop (not the first job, but one of the first) and later went into more collision side of things.

This "collision" being better than what I was taught in restoration became evident when I sectioned my second Chevy pickup. I did the first one when I was about 18 years old following the old R&C "Dream truck" little pages showing Valley Customs doing the job. I cut the cab right thru the middle of doors, firewall, and rear of the cab. One seam all the way around the "waist" of the truck. No "off set welds", no "pinch welds", no "plug welds", just butt welded all the way around, every reinforcement, every skin, just butt welded.

Twenty or so years later after many years in the "collision" side I sectioned another cab and half way through I had some hot rodder comment on how different it was being done and how much better it was. After replacing quarters and rockers and the like on late model cars for years I looked at the project completely different than Valley custom did back in the "good old days".

I drilled out spot welds, I trimmed off edges of panels, I made "Z" offset cuts, I didn't weld through the center of any panel, moving the cut to the end so as to not warp the metal. Even the door skins where left uncut, sectioning the shells instead and just trimming off the bottom of the skin. This cab looks like it came from the factory that way! It is FAR superior to my earlier attempt, FAR superior. And the reason was I used proper collsion repair techniques instead of some hard headed "restoration/custom, I do what I want because I am an artist" techniques.


Funny part about the "right way" and the "collision shop" way, there is no difference. It depends on the collision shop. I work in a shop where we really strive to "restoring" the car back to it's original condition. What is more like "restoring" than returning it back to original?

Every day we take things like a 2007 Toytoa Highlander that is smashed all to hell and return it to as close to original as humanly possible. This following the guidelines set forth by orgainizations such as ICAR that are the back bone of the autobody industry. A very minumum of filler is used, choosing to replace panels instead of repairing them. Every weld on panel is removed as close as possible to "unmanufacturing" where spot welds are drilled out and then the entire new panel is spot welded back in using a spot welder much like was used when the car was originally built. Corrosion protection is replaced, much like the original manufacturing process. The body is pulled back into shape using a $30k measuring system back to within a few mm just as it was manufactured. Every single componant is removed from any painted panels, including windows, handles, tape stripes, mouldings, etc so the complete panel is painted, just as it was manufactured. All new componants like glue on emblems are rubbers are replaced and not retaped, so it is just as it was manufactured.

We "restore" these cars BETTER than most "restoration" shops would a 69 Camaro.

I know there are tons of hack shops who are miles from this, but from what I have seen visiting hundreds of body shops, there are more that are doing this type of work than not.

You either do good work, or you don't. Being "restoration" or "Collision" really doesn't mean a hill of beans.

This is what I was talking about in my first post to Troy. The industry has came so far in the past 30 years it isn't even funny. When I first got in the business there is NO WAY in hell you would be pulling door handles off on a blend panel! Are you kidding?????? LOL, we taped EVERYTHING! We now, as an industry pull EVERYTHING off blend panels, it has became the norm. When I got into this business I had no clue what a "plug weld" was, but it sounds by the description Troy gave that this may be what his young man friend was doing with the "half inch holes" he was welding.

I see no difference what so ever, other than making a car BETTER than it was from the factory when you "customize" it. Or in making a "show car" you detail it much better than it was at the factory. But as far as "restoration", what is that? It is "restoring" it to original condition. That is exactly what the pro restoration shop does! It is only with newer cars than the "restoration" shop does it with.

Brian
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Old 03-11-2008, 10:50 AM
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RE:Quarters installed

Hi ok l don't know if this will make any difference in the understanding of it all, but l did take and pay for 3 trades, mechanics, welding and then autobody, for myself not to go into the trade but as l wanted to beable to do it for my own toys, l spent 4hrs a day for just short of 4 years, doing this and $13,000.00 dads money(24 years ago) and the family business is limos(Niagara Falls ) so l guess that made it easy for dad to fork over the money!!! But this is not what l do now.(work for my dad) So l took the courses and by the way at that time in the course the cars were dismantled and put back together! Chrome was always but on after paint. But l was paying to learn not learning an getting paid, so maybe thats part of the whole thing?

So l'm an old dog that doesn't believe in new ways, the 2 buddies that own there own body shops, 1 top notch and 1 so so, still do cars that way, strip them down! So thats the only advise that l looked to at first, and there very much like me, so thats why l post on here!! An once again thank-you for the slap up side the head and waking me up to the real world outside my little bubble!!!! TROY
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Old 03-11-2008, 05:40 PM
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Evidently, Brian works in the one PERFECT COLLISION/AUTO REMANUFACTURER shop in the world. They completely disassemble every vehicle that comes in the shop, and make it exactly as it was manufacturered. They even have spotweld robots to weld them back together, exactly like the manufacturer. (cough...cough)

In a collision shop, replacing a quarter on a vehicle like the Chevy Cobalt that I have at the shop right now, would involve "sectioning" in the sail panel, "B" pillar, and the rocker. Since this is a proceedure approved by GM, that is what the insurance company will pay for. If I was doing a "restoration" on a vehicle of similar design, it would involve removing the roof panel to facilitate replacing the complete "uniside" in one piece. It is also very seldome that I use filler on anything that I have access to both sides on restorations, as the time needed to repair is not a big concern. On the other hand, in a collision shop, where time is the main concern, filler is used regularly, with little concern.

In the collision industry, the main concern in many cases is the appearance to the untrained eye. Of course, there is the safety concern, but the appearance is what counts, as long as it can be done quickly. If the vehicle belongs to someone that is a "car guy", then things often will get hairy, as he may know how to look at the vehicle and see poor repairs. That young person that was installing the quarters may have been doing a job that would have been acceptable to the general public. The fact that someone that was watching had some training in the field, just makes it that much harder.

Aaron
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Old 03-11-2008, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adtkart
Evidently, Brian works in the one PERFECT COLLISION/AUTO REMANUFACTURER shop in the world. They completely disassemble every vehicle that comes in the shop, and make it exactly as it was manufacturered. They even have spotweld robots to weld them back together, exactly like the manufacturer. (cough...cough)

In a collision shop, replacing a quarter on a vehicle like the Chevy Cobalt that I have at the shop right now, would involve "sectioning" in the sail panel, "B" pillar, and the rocker. Since this is a proceedure approved by GM, that is what the insurance company will pay for. If I was doing a "restoration" on a vehicle of similar design, it would involve removing the roof panel to facilitate replacing the complete "uniside" in one piece. It is also very seldome that I use filler on anything that I have access to both sides on restorations, as the time needed to repair is not a big concern. On the other hand, in a collision shop, where time is the main concern, filler is used regularly, with little concern.

In the collision industry, the main concern in many cases is the appearance to the untrained eye. Of course, there is the safety concern, but the appearance is what counts, as long as it can be done quickly. If the vehicle belongs to someone that is a "car guy", then things often will get hairy, as he may know how to look at the vehicle and see poor repairs. That young person that was installing the quarters may have been doing a job that would have been acceptable to the general public. The fact that someone that was watching had some training in the field, just makes it that much harder.

Aaron

Aaron, sorry for the discussion, it never ceases to amaze me how I can post a response to you and you take it so personally.

How many restoration shops have you been in anyway? Filler is used regularly in restoration shops MORE so than collision shops. At least the collision shops I have worked at. We will take.... God I don't know, a month or more to go through a case of RAGE, and that is with five bodymen! I remember being at a very well known custom shop and the owner was mad because we couldn't accept that the car they were working on (a full custom) was a "two case car"! That is TWO cases of filler!


Now, in replacing that quarter on a 2007 Highlander when you are restoring it thirty years from now are you going to replace the whole side of the car? Because that is how it was made at the factory, the whole body side from tail lamp to cowl is one piece. What if you can't find an NOS panel on ebay () and you have to buy a Goodmark (they will have a Toyota division by then ) quarter panel. No, it will be sectioned somewhere, the trick is how well it is done. Toyota has a butt welding recommendation, that is what I do so it is as close to OEM as possible.

I don't do work for the "untrained eye" and neither does the shop where I work. I have for years looked at each job as if another pro was going to look it over when it was done. And in fact part of the training provided us by "Verifacts" (a great company to oversee SOP) suggests, having other techs look over your work before it moves to the next step.

I have always told apprentices, "It is easy to pull the wool over the eyes of some accountant who has brought his car to you to repair. Don't repair the car for the accountant owner, repair it for his neighbor who is a pro autobody technician."

If you don't work at a shop like this, and strive to, go look around because there are plenty around.

Brian

Last edited by MARTINSR; 03-11-2008 at 06:50 PM.
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