Quections on brakes and steering - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Suspension - Brakes - Steering
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2011, 05:53 PM
AZDoug's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Camp Verde, AZ
Posts: 62
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quections on brakes and steering

Finally fired up the '37 Ford pickup today to make sure everything works before it goes to final body worka nd paint.

Couple oddities though.

This is built on a TCI frame, with their supplied power brake booster and pedal assembly, the booster is under the drivers seat.

When i press the brake pedal with the motor running, the pedal stays down at the floor, with the brakes locked, until I use my foot to pull the pedal up to its upright position, at which time the brakes free up. When the motor is not running, no vacuum to the booster, the pedal returns to top on it own

Do i need to add some sort of return spring on the pedal, or is something else going on?

On to steering: Flaming river column, '88 T bird power rack steering. The column is connected to the rack using three U joints,and one steady bearing. The angles on the joints, from column to rack are 10 degrees, 20 degrees on the middle joint, and basically zero degrees on the joint at the rack.

When I first installed it, steering was smooth, lock to lock. I had the truck at a shop to get some metal fab work done,and they said the rack to frame bolts were loose (they weren't that loose, maybe just not torqued down), so they torqued the bolts down. They also had the column out, and put it back in.

Now, every half turn of the steering wheel, the wheel becomes very hard to turn, and the U joint linkage becomes very hard and stiff, when it is not in the hard to turn mode, you can easily move the u joints and linkage a bit by hand. When it is hard to turn mode, you can't jiggle a thing in the linkage.

Is this some sort of lengthening of the linkage as the U joints go in certain areas of their turn 180 degrees apart? Do I need to shorten one of the linkage rods a bit? Any thing else that can cause this, or any other fix?

Loosing up the steering column inside the cab where it bolts to the dash, and turning the wheel, allows the column to shift quite a bit at the hard to turn spots.

The problem exists motor running or not, it isn't pump related.

Thanks,
Doug

    Advertisement

Last edited by AZDoug; 04-10-2011 at 06:15 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2011, 06:13 PM
eloc431962's Avatar
Evil Wicked Mean And Nasty
 
Last wiki edit: Pilot bearing and bushings
Last journal entry: roof repair
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: back in the garage.
Posts: 13,762
Wiki Edits: 37

Thanks: 50
Thanked 28 Times in 24 Posts
As far as the brakes sounds like a lack of vacuum and probably wouldn't hurt to have a return spring also, but i really think it's simply from lack of vacuum.IMHO Also do you have a big cam in the engine ?



Cole
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2011, 06:24 PM
AZDoug's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Camp Verde, AZ
Posts: 62
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
I haven't even timed the motor yet. I will do that tomorrow. It fired up on first hit of the ignition,and it runs, though it may be off timing one way or the other, possibly advanced too much based ona couple backfires through teh carb.

I will check vac.


327 CI, 650 CFM Holley

No on the big cam, fairly short duration 212/218 I/E at .050", 110* LSA, .487"/.495" lift hyd roller Competition cam.

Thanks,
Doug
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2011, 06:25 PM
AZDoug's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Camp Verde, AZ
Posts: 62
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
BTW, if it is lack of vacuum, shouldn't the pedal stay at the floor with the motor off and no vacuum, also?

Thanks,
Doug
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2011, 06:30 PM
eloc431962's Avatar
Evil Wicked Mean And Nasty
 
Last wiki edit: Pilot bearing and bushings
Last journal entry: roof repair
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: back in the garage.
Posts: 13,762
Wiki Edits: 37

Thanks: 50
Thanked 28 Times in 24 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZDoug
BTW, if it is lack of vacuum, shouldn't the pedal stay at the floor with the motor off and no vacuum, also?

Thanks,
Doug
No not alway's the case, with a lack of vacuum the pedal can be hard to push, and sometime with a lack of vacuum when you push the pedal down it will not come back up on it's own but when you shut the engine down it will creep back up to the top again. JMO I am thinking when you get the engine dialed in and everything in order the pedal will be ok if the vacuum is there anyway.







Cole
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2011, 12:40 PM
AZDoug's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Camp Verde, AZ
Posts: 62
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Well, lack of manifold vacuum isn't the problem.

I have a steady 17" Hg at ~900 RPM cold idle. I have 3/8" hard line from the manifold to the cylinder, except for a hose connector at the booster and about 12" of hose from the hard line to the base of the carb (big rear center port in the carb base.

Doug
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2011, 01:03 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 211
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
brakes

on the brake booster there should be a plastic one way valve where the hose goes intoi the booster. if you pull that out of the booster it should hiss because the valve holds the vacuum in the booster. if it doesn't hiss then it may not be holding any vacuum. could be due to a bad check valve,a bad seal at the pushrod seal where the master cylinder bolts up, a hole in the diaphragm of the booster or just a leaking booster. make sure the pedal and linkage isn't binding or rubbing on anything. make sure the master cylinder isn't hanging up internally.make sure the (I assume) drum brakes are adjusted properly, no broken springs on the shoes.check to see if there is supposed to be a return spring on the lever of the brake pedal. how far down does the pedal go before you get a hard pedal and good solid brake feel? does it change if the engine is running? if in doubt call George at tci. he is their tech guy.
on the steering column, check to see if all the u-joints are lined up on the shaft. if they are out of phase it can cause some issues like binding. especially if the angles get big. as a u-joint turns one shaft actually speeds up and slows down in relation to the other shaft so if they are out of phase they are working against each other at times (go to google and punch in u joint angle limits, there is even chart that tells how much they change with the angles you have). if you think it is the column, just pull the shaft off the rack and (with the front end jacked up on stands) see if the wheels turn lock to lock easily or if they bind at some point. that will eliminate the actual steering mechanism (or maybe not, depending on what you find) I would look closely at the column u joints thogh, since it was ok before the column was disturbed. maybe the tech just didn't line up all the u-joints correctly.
dsraven
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2011, 03:30 PM
eloc431962's Avatar
Evil Wicked Mean And Nasty
 
Last wiki edit: Pilot bearing and bushings
Last journal entry: roof repair
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: back in the garage.
Posts: 13,762
Wiki Edits: 37

Thanks: 50
Thanked 28 Times in 24 Posts
Good advice in the above post.


Cole
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2011, 03:38 PM
AZDoug's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Camp Verde, AZ
Posts: 62
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Pedal goes pretty far down, I know there is still a little bit of air in the system. Four wheel discs.

I suspect U joints also, as the steering gets hard every 180 degree turn of the steering wheel, a rack issue would seem to be a 360 degree problem.

Since I wasn't there when the column was out, i dunno how far apart they took stuff.

The U joint can only go on the end of the column one way (well two ways, 180 degrees apart. I wouldn't think that would change anything, but I don't know. I do not think they had the center joint out, as they would have to remove the rack, or steady bearing to do that, and I don't think they did, but again, who knows. The drive shaft is the flat sided round bar, so the joints can only go two ways each .

I will investigate drive shaft angles further, though those didn't change between good steering and bad steering..

Thanks,
Doug
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2011, 06:09 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 211
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
brakes

ok, sorry if this gets a little long winded......
if the pedal goeds down more than 1/2 way, then you defiinately need to bleed the brakes. with disc brakes there is no return springs to bring the brake caliper pistons back to their respective spots in the calipers.they sit in a square "O" ring seal and as the piston is pushed out by the brake fluid pressure when you step on the brakes, the "O" ring is rolled. when you release the brake pedal (and the hydraulic perssure goes down) the "O" ring tries to go back to it's original shape, which brings the piston along for the ride back into the caliper. that is why when you look at the brakes, there is only a very small gap between the brake pads and the rotors. so for future reference, if your brake pads are wearing out on the piston side of the rotor, then it makes sense that it could be the caliper that is starting to sieze up. if the pad on the opposite side from the piston, then it is probably the caliper mounting slides that are gummed up and not allowing the caliper to move back to it's "brakes off" position. if the pads are worn out in a tapered pattern, then probably just one of the caliper mounts is starting to sieze up.
soooo,
do a quick check on the brake pedal linkage for rubbing or binding. maybe even loosen the mounts on the booster to be sure the linkage is all good. check where the pedal arm goes through the floor, maybe the grommet needs some silicone lube. then make sure that the pushrod into the master cyl isn't too long or short. when that is all good adjust the park brake.
then, bleed all the brakes. get one of those one man bleeder things with the little bottle and a hose. they are cheap. read the directions if you are unclear, but you will need to find one of the hose adapters that will fit onto your bleeder screws tightly, and you will need to put some fluid into the cup part of the self bleeder device. there will be a litle hose to connect inside the lid that should go down into the cup. put it all together and then put that in a coffee can, so you don't have to keep such a close eye on it for overfilling.make sure it will stay upright. start the bleeding process at the wheel that has the longest run from the master cylinder. then the second farthest etc etc. keep an eye on the master cyl so you don't run dry and suck air.if you do, start over again.when you are done your pedal should be hard and the travel should be no more than 1/2 way down.
I am not sure but I would assume with 4 wheel discs there might need to be a return spring on the pedal. otherwise, especially with a lot of linkage like the underfloor units have, there may be a constant pressure on the master cyl, which would make the brakes drag, and would make the pedal do funny things like you have going on.
good luck and keep us posted
dsraven
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Suspension - Brakes - Steering posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Suspension, brakes, steering R Raymond Introduce Yourself 1 07-26-2004 04:09 PM
power brakes and steering shesmy63 Suspension - Brakes - Steering 3 06-11-2003 08:18 PM
Steering and brakes Jim Vines Suspension - Brakes - Steering 1 01-08-2003 12:09 PM
brakes and steering wizard1932 Suspension - Brakes - Steering 9 09-06-2002 06:41 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.