Question about flex additive, Barry? - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Body - Exterior
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-20-2005, 01:51 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,131
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,301
Thanked 1,143 Times in 1,011 Posts
Question about flex additive, Barry?

Barry, you have mentioned that "flex additive" will be of no good in a few months. This follows what I have heard as well, though I don't know why this is so. I did look at an MSDS once on an old flex additive and found that it had a huge amount I isocyanates! This was a flex recommended for lacquers, what is it doing?

Is that old technology and newer flex are different?
Are all brands of flex basically the same technology?

Now, I don't know of a product that even has a flex recommendation. It seems that modern urethanes (or polyurethanes as well I guess) just don't need it. Are flex additives a thing of the past? I know I havn't used one in years.

Brian

    Advertisement

Last edited by MARTINSR; 03-20-2005 at 02:22 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 03-20-2005, 07:20 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 3,578
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 10
Thanked 61 Times in 39 Posts
Man, i have not stayed up on this at all.

If you remember the old "Impact coating" made by Morton (Stockton CA)
Back in early 80's they had about 90% of the market and as I recall? it was about 10% ISO and rest solvent.
It worked very good in lacquers just like adding 5-10% ISO to your base works great today.

In enamels worked OK, and did give a little extra gloss because of the extra ISO.
Urethanes all your doing is over activating and slowing the cure down and the unmated radical will be leaving.

What they are doing today, if anything i don't have a clue. I do know back in early 90's Bayer was experimenting with some PMA's and different acid groups. i can ask my rep and see if anything came out of it but I don't think anything did but I just have not paid any attention.

It is just pain useless to put in a urethane, as a matter of fact my personal opinion is if you were concern about flex, I think you would be better off under catalyzing the clear by 5%--It will still cure out but remain softer and that = more flex.
I just have not stayed up on the flex agents but I will nail the Bayer rep for you and see what I can learn.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 03-20-2005, 08:29 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,131
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,301
Thanked 1,143 Times in 1,011 Posts
Thanks, let us know what you hear. I hear it come up once in a while on the forums, people are still thinking they need it. I would like to have the straight scoop.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 03-20-2005, 09:21 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,707
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
The newer flex additives work forever, PPG and Sikkens seem to have the best. I've seen tests with the Sikkens products last forever. I have no clue how they work but they do. Sikkens is also recomending the additive for exterior sheetmetal in areas where stone chipping is severe and it works. I've seen tests where seran wrap, nerf balls, and sponges have been sprayed and the paint resists cracking for months later.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 03-21-2005, 05:42 PM
Have Gun, Will Paint
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Washington State 509
Age: 35
Posts: 208
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Using flex additive to prevent rock chips sounds like a great idea........but I'm wondering how (if at all) would the flex additive effect the topcoats ability to be cut and buffed

Last time I used a flex additive (bulldog I think) it was to refinish a front urethane bumper on a Honda.

The paint flexed great with the bumper with no cracking, but I had to wait a week before being able to properly cut and buff it......at first I would get build up on the paper, so I waited until it "cured" enough to be able to sand it with out build up.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 03-21-2005, 05:58 PM
pro70z28's Avatar
Member
 

Last journal entry: "Z" construction
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: illinois
Age: 61
Posts: 190
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I painted my sons bumpers (camaro) with flex additive (PPG). A couple years later he replaced the front brakes. It was rainy, he went out for a test, came back in the garage too fast and slid into the garage steps. He didn't hurt the steps (Good thing for him HEHEHE) but he flexed the front bumper enough to pop some paint loose (Lacquer). I shot it with lacquer and top coated it with urethane (Delclear). I know that's old school and I should have used the newer base coat/ clear coat. Next time I will.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 03-21-2005, 06:20 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 3,578
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 10
Thanked 61 Times in 39 Posts
I have started collecting answers but I want to verify with one more person to make sure i have everything right, hopefully I will hear from him in a day or two.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2005, 09:15 AM
p8nter's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Missouri
Posts: 62
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I know BASF and SIKKENS flex additive works great and is needed in soft and easily flexed parts. Most people make the mistake of only using it in the clear but really needs to go in any primer or sealer used also. Using it does make it allot more chip resistant but also slows drying times down allot and makes buffing a *****.


Craig
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2005, 10:35 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 3,578
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 10
Thanked 61 Times in 39 Posts
Here is what i have done, I have talked to 3 R&D departments from other paint companies to get an idea of whats going on.
At this point a lot of the flex agents are still being made with cheaper plasticizers that work their way out of the clear.

There is one plasticizer being used on a limited basis that does not come out.
"Polyglycidyl Either" Basic description is this is a big molecule that will mate with the polyols.

First here is the problem. None of these chemicals need to be listed on the can or MSDS because they are not considered hazardous so there is no way for you to know except for the honesty of your rep. No comment.

Here is what we did, Jamie in the lab did a test with the PE in a polyurethane clear and two different Urethane clears we had laying around. The elongation test showed zero increase in the polyurethane and about 8 % ave in the urethanes.

Bottom line is its a waste of money and each person in R&D says the same thing but marketing needs it. Its a money maker!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2005, 07:45 PM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,131
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,301
Thanked 1,143 Times in 1,011 Posts
I figured as such, thanks for your diligence.
Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2005, 08:34 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,707
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
interesting, but the examples I've seen still remain flexible, I wonder how long untill the stuff disappears?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2005, 09:51 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Overland park, Kansas burb of KC
Posts: 244
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Bob, when I took my PPG cert classes last May the topic of flex additives came up. Both reps said its pretty much a marketing item. They recommended its use mainly for installation on those real flimsy bumpers like Dodge caravan and Lincoln town cars, bumpers that are a half mile wide

From what I got out of it was that the additive disappeared roughly 1-2 months later depending on the clear it was added to and the temps.

Now this was with the Deltron line, am not familiar with the Global line at all, maybe different maybe not.

Ive heard from painters who are spraying Spies that the flex additive really seems to lessen rock chips and paint cracks on damaged bumpers that have previously been replaced then refinished.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 03-24-2005, 08:30 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,707
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
There's just a few things that have developed recently that really point out to me that the newer flex additives are lasting like that of an oem applied finish. The tests I've seen with Sikkens point this out. I did a complete for my Sikken's supplier this summer and he had me apply flex additive to the whole fricken car! The largest insurance company in North America just did some extensive research on flex additive. You can bet it is of great interest to all insurance companies whether they owe for a product and if it needs to be used or not. I work for this company and they had a nationwide broadcast explaining the lastest developments and also comparing it to the older type flex that disapears. The research Barry did has me confused but it looks like there have been some major changes. I work on mostly just older cars/restorations now so it really isn't a major concern for me, but I'll definately use what is suggested for the paint I'm using when I do need to spray flexible parts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2005, 04:34 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 3,578
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 10
Thanked 61 Times in 39 Posts
Baddbob,

Don't think for a second the insurance company is checking to make sure the flex additive gives stone chip Resistance or is worth the money. The ONLY reason they are investigating is if they can get away with baning the use or if the shop wants to use it, the shop pays for it.

I can understand you being confused. Its funny each R&D person would laugh and say its just a waste of money to use. BUT R&D and Marketing are two different departments all together and like one told me, marketing loves the stuff as last yet it was 6.2 million in sales.

So with cars getting smaller and using less paint being used never expect the normal paint salesman to say you don't need it.

You know I get 1-2 calls a week average and not sure how many the other guys get asking if Dupont, Basf or blah-blah flex will work in my clear or primer. I give the same story, yes but its a waste of money.

Jamie advised me last night that we could make a quart of this and a 250 gallon batch we would have in the quart the following cost.

Material-67.8 cents
quart can, cone type with plastic lid. -65 cents
Label -21 cents.
At old math thats under $2.00 a quart.

Whats this stuff sell for? Maybe I should start making it?

I will sleep better if i don't make it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Body - Exterior posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Smog Question, Lucas additive Echofive Engine 3 03-24-2005 09:08 AM
700r4 torque converter to flex plate question BR57 Transmission - Rearend 6 10-05-2004 12:41 AM
18 12/2 flex fan shroud clearance question Jag Daddy Engine 0 09-01-2004 03:43 PM
Push Rod Flex Question Jag Daddy Engine 2 06-19-2004 02:15 AM
Hotrodders Guidelines -- READ ME Jon Engine 0 06-14-2003 04:53 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.