[MARTINSR]

Barry, you have mentioned that "flex additive" will be of no good in a few months. This follows what I have heard as well, though I don't know why this is so. I did look at an MSDS once on an old flex additive and found that it had a huge amount I isocyanates! This was a flex recommended for lacquers, what is it doing?

Is that old technology and newer flex are different?
Are all brands of flex basically the same technology?

Now, I don't know of a product that even has a flex recommendation. It seems that modern urethanes (or polyurethanes as well I guess) just don't need it. Are flex additives a thing of the past? I know I havn't used one in years.

Brian

[BarryK]

Man, i have not stayed up on this at all.

If you remember the old "Impact coating" made by Morton (Stockton CA)
Back in early 80's they had about 90% of the market and as I recall? it was about 10% ISO and rest solvent.
It worked very good in lacquers just like adding 5-10% ISO to your base works great today.

In enamels worked OK, and did give a little extra gloss because of the extra ISO.
Urethanes all your doing is over activating and slowing the cure down and the unmated radical will be leaving.

What they are doing today, if anything i don't have a clue. I do know back in early 90's Bayer was experimenting with some PMA's and different acid groups. i can ask my rep and see if anything came out of it but I don't think anything did but I just have not paid any attention.

It is just pain useless to put in a urethane, as a matter of fact my personal opinion is if you were concern about flex, I think you would be better off under catalyzing the clear by 5%--It will still cure out but remain softer and that = more flex.
I just have not stayed up on the flex agents but I will nail the Bayer rep for you and see what I can learn.

[MARTINSR]

Thanks, let us know what you hear. I hear it come up once in a while on the forums, people are still thinking they need it. I would like to have the straight scoop.

Brian

[baddbob]

The newer flex additives work forever, PPG and Sikkens seem to have the best. I've seen tests with the Sikkens products last forever. I have no clue how they work but they do. Sikkens is also recomending the additive for exterior sheetmetal in areas where stone chipping is severe and it works. I've seen tests where seran wrap, nerf balls, and sponges have been sprayed and the paint resists cracking for months later.

[myfamiliacc]

Using flex additive to prevent rock chips sounds like a great idea........but I'm wondering how (if at all) would the flex additive effect the topcoats ability to be cut and buffed

Last time I used a flex additive (bulldog I think) it was to refinish a front urethane bumper on a Honda.

The paint flexed great with the bumper with no cracking, but I had to wait a week before being able to properly cut and buff it......at first I would get build up on the paper, so I waited until it "cured" enough to be able to sand it with out build up.

[pro70z28]

I painted my sons bumpers (camaro) with flex additive (PPG). A couple years later he replaced the front brakes. It was rainy, he went out for a test, came back in the garage too fast and slid into the garage steps. He didn't hurt the steps (Good thing for him HEHEHE) but he flexed the front bumper enough to pop some paint loose (Lacquer). I shot it with lacquer and top coated it with urethane (Delclear). I know that's old school and I should have used the newer base coat/ clear coat. Next time I will.

[BarryK]

I have started collecting answers but I want to verify with one more person to make sure i have everything right, hopefully I will hear from him in a day or two.

[p8nter]

I know BASF and SIKKENS flex additive works great and is needed in soft and easily flexed parts. Most people make the mistake of only using it in the clear but really needs to go in any primer or sealer used also. Using it does make it allot more chip resistant but also slows drying times down allot and makes buffing a *****.


Craig

[BarryK]

Here is what i have done, I have talked to 3 R&D departments from other paint companies to get an idea of whats going on.
At this point a lot of the flex agents are still being made with cheaper plasticizers that work their way out of the clear.

There is one plasticizer being used on a limited basis that does not come out.
"Polyglycidyl Either" Basic description is this is a big molecule that will mate with the polyols.

First here is the problem. None of these chemicals need to be listed on the can or MSDS because they are not considered hazardous so there is no way for you to know except for the honesty of your rep. No comment.

Here is what we did, Jamie in the lab did a test with the PE in a polyurethane clear and two different Urethane clears we had laying around. The elongation test showed zero increase in the polyurethane and about 8 % ave in the urethanes.

Bottom line is its a waste of money and each person in R&D says the same thing but marketing needs it. Its a money maker!

[MARTINSR]

I figured as such, thanks for your diligence.
Brian

[baddbob]

interesting, but the examples I've seen still remain flexible, I wonder how long untill the stuff disappears?

[sevt_chevelle]

Bob, when I took my PPG cert classes last May the topic of flex additives came up. Both reps said its pretty much a marketing item. They recommended its use mainly for installation on those real flimsy bumpers like Dodge caravan and Lincoln town cars, bumpers that are a half mile wide

From what I got out of it was that the additive disappeared roughly 1-2 months later depending on the clear it was added to and the temps.

Now this was with the Deltron line, am not familiar with the Global line at all, maybe different maybe not.

Ive heard from painters who are spraying Spies that the flex additive really seems to lessen rock chips and paint cracks on damaged bumpers that have previously been replaced then refinished.

[baddbob]

There's just a few things that have developed recently that really point out to me that the newer flex additives are lasting like that of an oem applied finish. The tests I've seen with Sikkens point this out. I did a complete for my Sikken's supplier this summer and he had me apply flex additive to the whole fricken car! The largest insurance company in North America just did some extensive research on flex additive. You can bet it is of great interest to all insurance companies whether they owe for a product and if it needs to be used or not. I work for this company and they had a nationwide broadcast explaining the lastest developments and also comparing it to the older type flex that disapears. The research Barry did has me confused but it looks like there have been some major changes. I work on mostly just older cars/restorations now so it really isn't a major concern for me, but I'll definately use what is suggested for the paint I'm using when I do need to spray flexible parts.

[BarryK]

Baddbob,

Don't think for a second the insurance company is checking to make sure the flex additive gives stone chip Resistance or is worth the money. The ONLY reason they are investigating is if they can get away with baning the use or if the shop wants to use it, the shop pays for it.

I can understand you being confused. Its funny each R&D person would laugh and say its just a waste of money to use. BUT R&D and Marketing are two different departments all together and like one told me, marketing loves the stuff as last yet it was 6.2 million in sales.

So with cars getting smaller and using less paint being used never expect the normal paint salesman to say you don't need it.

You know I get 1-2 calls a week average and not sure how many the other guys get asking if Dupont, Basf or blah-blah flex will work in my clear or primer. I give the same story, yes but its a waste of money.

Jamie advised me last night that we could make a quart of this and a 250 gallon batch we would have in the quart the following cost.

Material-67.8 cents
quart can, cone type with plastic lid. -65 cents
Label -21 cents.
At old math thats under $2.00 a quart.

Whats this stuff sell for? Maybe I should start making it?

I will sleep better if i don't make it.