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Old 01-19-2008, 12:42 AM
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Question about rust.

Question about rust.

If light surface rust or rust in areas one might miss in seams etc is epoxied primed and top coated can it continue to rust.
If rust is a result of moisture in the air and/or water coming into contact with bare metal and existing rust then cutting off the supply of moisture by painting it should stop in spreading??
Or is there more to it than this?

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Old 01-19-2008, 03:46 AM
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yes..all rust should be taken care of properly..bad rust should be cut out and replaced with new metal surface rust should be removed.if not you will be sealing it in there with the epoxie primer.
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Old 01-19-2008, 09:09 AM
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Remove all the rust you can, sometimes it will require opening up the seams, the seams need to be sealed and any interior surfaces that can't be prepped properly for epoxy primer need to be coated with a self healing cavity wax type coating. 3M's rustfighter is one example but there are many available including Cosmoline. Some seams can be opened enough between the spotwelds that sandblasting will clean them well, other seams that are rolled like on door skins are a major challenge- and it all comes down to determining just how much corrosion is there and if it needs to be opened up and repaired or just treated so it doesn't continue to corrode. Obvious indicators would be seams that are so corroded that they have swelled-these need to be opened up and cleaned and repaired. Hope this makes sense. Your exterior work will only hold up if the interior is also treated. Rust sucks!
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Old 01-19-2008, 02:54 PM
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Thanks for the advice but it doesn't answer to question.
Does rust spread or grow if left in a moisture/oxygen free environment?
Can painting rust encapsulate it to provide the above?
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Old 01-19-2008, 03:31 PM
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Yes rust will stop growing if you protect it from the elements that cause it to grow. Drop a rusty part in a bucket of oil and yes it will stop rusting. If the barrier is ever broken the corrosion will start to grow again.
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Old 01-19-2008, 03:39 PM
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Thanks so thats how products like POR 15 work.
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Old 01-19-2008, 07:07 PM
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POR 15 actually converts the rust to a inert black crap (can't recall the name). However, its adhesive properties are not so great.
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Old 01-19-2008, 07:35 PM
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POR15 converts the surface of the rust to Iron Phosphate I believe and provides a barrier with it's coating. If you break the barrier the rust will again start to grow and it will run right under the POR. There's also some prep work involved with using POR correctly and some interior areas you just don't have access-this is where a self healing, penetrating, wax type coating works well. I've seen POR come off in sheets when the prep wasn't done right.
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Old 01-19-2008, 07:43 PM
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Doesnt surprise me. Is this wax stuff you speak of the stuff dealers like to spray inside doors and stuff to coat all the jams and seams with that oily material?
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Old 01-19-2008, 08:07 PM
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It's designed for coating inner panels so you usually won't find it in door jambs, the thickness will vary depending on what brand is used. When applied it is runny and will flow into seams and fill the void and some will actually crawl up verticle surfaces, when dried it is like a soft sticky wax and when exposed to heat (summer sun temperatures) it will actually flow some making it self healing. When I treat door seams and similar areas after the paint work is done I usually tape the seam closed from the exterior (if this is a seam that isn't supposed to be seam sealed) then spray and allow the seam to soak for a day and remove the tape. Rocker seams, quarter seams, drip rails, A pillars, floor bracing, unibody rails, etc... they all get the treatement. A wand with a 360 degree sprayhead works well for boxed areas.
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Old 01-20-2008, 01:01 AM
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It sounds like you've some hard work ahead of you, it's the only proper way.

If you have serious rust...
Get yourself a small wire brush drill tip end that will fit into the small spaces of your car. Stainless steel or brass, and grind that rust down, then use 40 grit, then 80 grit sand paper to further grind the rust, then use a quality rust converter (Rust Mort works great and can be sprayed out of a bottle). When trying to get into hard to reach cracks and narrow spaces, I find it helps to fold the paper in half so that there is a crease in the sand paper with sand abrasive on both sides... .... Repeat the process...grind, sand, conveter; then sand once more, then vacuum, then blow air into the cracks, then spray Dupont 1K self etching spray bomb primer (it's worth the extra 5 bucks a can). Use work lamps to help dry the paint.

Poor man's check list for serious rust.
- Locate to good autobody supply store. Avoid the big box stores, they tend to not have that niche' stuff you'll want. And they don;t appreciate your buisness as much.
- breathing masks - lots of them.
- 40, 80, 120 grit sand paper
- Rust converter. Buy the good stuff...just go to a good autobody supply store.
- Wire brush drill tip
- Some generic small paint scrapers... old screw drivers or a very small chisel.
- Dupont 1K self etching primer spray bomb.
- Generic top coat spray bomb
- A TARP to cover your car! Unless you have a garage in which case I am jealous.
- a drill
- a Shop Vac vaccum.
- Some Serious elbow grease
- lots of food! You will get tired, and will need the calories. Trust me!

If you just have basic surface rust...sand it down, 40, 80, 120 grit, then Dupont 1K, and top coat. PoR is a bit overrated compared to some elbow grease, proper primer, and hard work. It also cannot be sprayed without a compressor.

I just finished stripping/painting the ENTIRE interior metal of my 69' El camino rust bucket with a 3/4" wire brush tip! I cleaned, scraped, and vacuumed out the fender wells, they were FULL of old leaves and pine needles. It got into and under every nook and cranny. It took me about a month or 2 for the whole process, the interior metal looks brand new.


***Disclaimer...be sure NOT to put rust converter on parts/seams, or joints you intend to weld/repair. For those areas, just grind the rust until you see nice shiny metal, then seal it using the Dupont self etching and a top coat of any generic spray bomb primer. When you get around to welding the area, grind and sand it down to bare metal again, and weld.

And yes, use the wax or tar sealer for the joints, it's avoids future rust, apply it after the sanding, converting, primer process.

Micholi.
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Old 01-20-2008, 08:24 AM
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I have been thinking about trying this stuff by KBS after I get my rust on my camaro cut out and replaced with new steel panels welded in, has anyone tried it. If so how did it work.

http://www.kbs-coatings.com/
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Old 01-20-2008, 05:59 PM
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Hey gang,

The info. below is from web. I've been using phosphoric acid to wash out the nooks and crannies of my old rusty 30 Plymouth. Even with a thorough blasting I still had some rust in places like hinge posts. Butt welding all my patches helped too. I remade all the seems around the door skin and had the doors dipped. So far so good. I chose to go this route instead of using POR. I made my decision based on input from the guys on the forum. I think there right... get rid of the rust as much as possible and then encapsulate with with epoxy primer.

Rust removal
Phosphoric acid may be used by direct application to rusted iron, steel tools, or surfaces to convert iron(III) oxide (rust) to a water-soluble phosphate compound. It is usually available as a greenish liquid, suitable for dipping (acid bath), but is more generally used as a component in a gel, commonly called naval jelly. As a thick gel, it may be applied to sloping, vertical, or even overhead surfaces. Care must be taken to avoid acid burns of the skin and especially the eyes, but the residue is easily diluted with water. When sufficiently diluted, it can even be nutritious to plant life, containing the essential nutrients phosphorus and iron. It is sometimes sold under other names, such as "rust remover" or "rust killer." It should not be directly introduced into surface water such as creeks or into drains, however. After treatment, the reddish-brown iron oxide will be converted to a black iron phosphate compound coating that may be scrubbed off. Multiple applications of phosphoric acid may be required to remove all rust. The resultant black compound can provide further corrosion resistance (such protection is somewhat provided by the superficially similar Parkerizing and blued electrochemical conversion coating processes.) After application and removal of rust using phosphoric acid compounds, the metal should be oiled (if to be used bare, as in a tool) or appropriately painted, by using a multiple coat process of primer, intermediate, and finish coats.
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Old 01-20-2008, 08:42 PM
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The jelly works great on surface rust im told. I tried it for my 1st few applications, mainly behind the interior metal, but I found the liquid type was more potent.

I also recently used "Plastic coats" liquid paste converter, it looks like Vim or toothpaste, and the product leaves a very strong surface behind; In fact it's quite hard to sand away. I was surpised by the quality of the product. I personally did not want this finish, and preferred the Rust Mort, as it was sprayable and left behind a smoother finish to the metal.

Eitherway, you'll have her done in no time.
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Old 01-21-2008, 04:03 PM
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I would not use a 1K primer for anything you want to last. If you are going thru the trouble to remove the rust, seal it with a quality epoxy primer. A 1K primer, etch or otherwise, is useless to protect from rust. No need for a rust encapsulator or convertor either, as the epoxy will seal it better. For areas where you cannot get inside, use a cavity wax to seal it.

Aaron
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