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Question about using diesel oil for new engine break in?

16K views 24 replies 13 participants last post by  327amc 
#1 ·
Just had a sbc 350 built, .030 over, 880 block from 1989, VORTEC 906 heads, Comp cams roller cam and sealed power roller lifters, RPM air gap manifold, etc.
Using Driven BR 15W-50 break in oil for priming and initial runs...


Question: Due to the additional detergents in diesel oil, I was considering using some Valvoline Premium Blue for the first two oil changes after the break in period.
What are your thoughts on this for cleaning out all the additional metal materials and setting the rings well.


Love the feedback since you dudes have incredible experience.
Thanks for your time.


- Boaz
 
#2 ·
Since it's a roller camshaft... you really dont have to use break in oil. It probably wont hurt though. Be sure to change your filter after running the engine for a short while. New engines tend to clog filters quickly especially if moly assembly lube was used. Then the bypass opens and you've go unfiltered oil circulating.

If the lifters are sealer power OEM type...I've never had any luck with them on COMP roller cams, apparently the fast ramps overwhelm the OE type lifter and they collapse and clack away.
 
#3 ·
ICSAmerica;
Can elaborate on your experience with the Sealed Power lifters? The application is only a daily driver/fun hauler/street fun truck (the 83 C10 in the pic), so would I need to worry about "the fast ramps overloading the OE type lifter" with a Comp cam?
I had a local engine specialist do the build after I told him the specs/parts I wanted so if there is a possible weak point I want to make sure and plan ahead.
In the long run though, the application is only daily driver which is why I went with a warmed up RV type cam and VORTEC heads.
I am interested in opinions on what carb to use.
Right now I have a 625 cfm Carter Demon. Been told to check out Holley but I would like to me more specific I suppose.


Thanks for the advice.


-Boaz
 
#8 ·
I'm unsure why you'd want to use diesel oil for break in, since there are so many good or better choices that are readily available, and not any more money? A couple great choices are Valvoline VR1, or Brad Penn break in oil. Both about $6-$6.25 a qt. Every chain store has VR1, so why buy a diesel oil for a gas engine?
 
#12 ·
The engine doesn't know if it's running on peanut oil either, so why not run it? The difference between diesel and gas engine oil is not simply the wear ability of the oil. Diesel oils have far more additives than gas engine oils, and generally will have different zinc levels. The newer diesel oil has far less zinc, as diesels now run a catalytic converter also. But it's a different cat than a gas engine car, so it runs different additives.
I personally don't want a bunch of extra additives in my oil, and prefer to use oil specified for gas engines. Valvoline VR1 and Brad Penn both are designed for use in older engines. Brad Penn Break In Oil is specifically designed for engines during the break in period, to help seat rings, and avoid excess wear under new engine break in. I run it in all my new engines, and then switch to Brad Penn 15-40 wt., or VR1, after break in period.
 
#10 ·
Why would a company hold back on the good stuff? To purposely not sell the good stuff but instead sell the not good stuff so the good stuff looks better? This doesn't make any sense at all.

Formulation are specific to the need. Diesels appreciate more detergents than pump gas engine or a propane engine or a race gas engine or a cam break in. Typically, break in oils have little or no detergents.
 
#11 ·
Because the federal government stepped in to control oil formulations in order to protect catalytic converters from contaminations that fail their function.

Among the big contaminants was Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate or ZDDP. This is a dry lube carried in the oil that attaches to surfaces providing Extreme Pressure (EP) lubrication. In engine oil it is useful in rubbing interfaces such as gears, gears and chains as used in the cam drive system and is especially helpful in the highly loaded contact area of flat tappet cam lobes and the tappet.

Automotive oils were the first to be subjected to major reductions of this material in the oil because it contaminates catalytic converters reducing and finally ending their function. So the EPA mandated their reduction. Hot-rodder’s quickly discovered that diesel formulated oils were rich in ZDDP and other heavy wear additives so generally adapted the stuff; however, as the years passed diesels also acquired catalytic converters which had the same problems with ZDDP so the percentage of ZDDP has been reduced in most of those oils as well.

The auto manufacturer's responded to this by starting to use roller lifter cams in the mid 1980's while the remaining flat tappet cams were emasculated to very short timing and lifts so light springs could be used to unload the cam lobe to tappet interface.

The problem gets tougher as it would seem simple to pour in aftermarket additives high in ZDDP, but the modern oils are also very high in detergents which tend to strip ZDDP from metallic surfaces.

There are other technical solutions such as surface hardening of camshafts and tappets. Many aftermarket cam companies offer nitriding of the cam and case hardening of lifter feet. This is an extra and significant cost. For example the GM 52332720 has a nodular iron foot it is about 4 times as expensive as a regular production lifter. But they wear well against the cam lobe.

The roller cam doesn't have the same wear problems because the cam and the roller of the tappet has to be made from better materials and processes which is why it's more expensive. The same or similar materials can be used for flat tappet cams and lifters but as with the 52332720 above shows the cost quickly closes in on those of a roller cam. This really is an old solution to the problem of lobe and tappet wear before the advent of ZDDP in the 1960’s, before that so called chilled iron tappets were a popular though expensive solution.

One could use break in oil with low detergency and lots of over the counter ZDDP additives but this trades the cam wear issue for sludge, varnish, sticky lifters and valves, and of course if you have to get past an emissions test a dying if not dead cat converter.

Bogie
 
#13 ·
Ford Super duty diesel oil states on the bottle "Do not use in gasoline engines with a catalyst". Maybe it's because of a high zinc content? You really cant tell without an oil analysis. I use it in my 10067353 crate engine, but I do add a half bottle of Lucas Engine Break In Oil Additive at oil changes. I may send in a sample next oil change to see where my levels are.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I know this a bit of necro thread but searched for something related to the oil situation relative to flat tap pet cams. This seemed to be the newest.

So, my Willys has a blown sbc and about 20,000 miles since it hit the road. I drive it everywhere any time I feel the need. Rain, dirt roads, hot cold. It's like the pink rabbit. I've posted many times about blowers.

I change oil about 3000 miles and up until yesterday I've addd some kind of zinc additive to preserve the cam and lifters. So far everything is still going strong. Additives have been harder to get locally and I hate the expense of ordering them. I've read countless piles of oil information, read the stuff from cam mfgs, the oil test companies etc. I have a diesel truck with 350k on the clock that still runs great and gets 21 mpg. So I've been into oil plenty.

I've followed the specialty oil companies passingly and frankly thought they were more snake oil. Brad Penn, Joe Gibbs, Red Line plus a few others that claim great things for our hot rods. So since additives I had been using are hard to find locally I decided to try Brad Penn from a fellow hotrodder's store. 10w-40. IT turned out only 2 bucks total more than a standard oil change with additive. Many of my cruise buddies use this or one of the other brands. Nobody has had problems with any of them so I felt confident it would work in my hotrod.

During cruising my last 6000 miles I began noticing oil pressure dropping. It was just over 50 on the gage but as of late it had dropped to about 45. Less than 50 even when cold. I kept thinking time for bearings if I'm lucky. I cut the last 2 filters apart but didn't find anything like bearing or metal trash. What I did find was the filters were full of black sludgy stuff. The oil is always clean and clear on the stick and the valve covers are clean on the inside. I suspect this stuff is the remains of the black additive.

So on the way out to the shop to change oil I booted the speed up a little and turned the a/c on. It was 90 deg outside temp bright sun for a change. When I took this picture I had been crusing for a solid hour on the highway so the motor was well warmed up. As you can see the oil pressure is a needle under 50. I have checked this with another gage too. Anyway my heart was sinking and at this age I don't like the feeling.

After the oil change to Brad Penn the oil jumped to 75+ cold but warm motor. The highest I've ever seen on this motor. I had to tap the gage to see if it was working. Back on the road I clicked the a/c back on and drove out of my way to get a good hour run to see where it went. It settled at about 65 maybe a little more. I couldn't believe it. The motor picked up 200 rpm at idle which I dialed out. It seems to run freer and started right up at the gas station which it Usually turns pretty hard. I didn't get a picture as highway traffic got crazy but I'll post one later.

I hope this stuff continues to perform for the next 3000 miles. Hopefully no more additives. Getting me to jump on this bandwagon took some talking and real life experience.

This is the before picture, I'll do an after shot later
 

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#18 ·
Awesome story :thumbup: Ive been there before.

What previous oil were you using?

That black sludge could be from a nonsynthetic oil or additive. Thats one great advantage to the synthetics.
Conventional oil will drop sludge right where it forms. Synthetic oil will carry sludge to the filter.

With a good quality synthetic oil, you wont need anything added.

Save some money on the Penn and just grab Amsoil Signature Series.

Since you are getting sludge in your filter, change your filter an extra time or two, until your engine is cleaned out.
 
#20 ·
That Vr1 isnt synthetic (from what I read on their website). It will drop sludge in any engine using it for standard passenger change intervals.

Never use a 'racing' oil for something with passenger car oil change intervals.

The conditions are drastically different. Yes, 500mi of nonstop racing is hard on an oil.
But so are daily driver hot and cold cycles, and condensation and acid buildup... etc etc.


Here are some good links for reading Independent test results.


AMSOIL Performance Testing Archives

http://www.amsoil.com/performancetests.aspx
 
#21 ·
I don't use synthetic oil in anything I drive. Closest I have is Brad Penn which is a mix of petroleum and synthetic. Have used VR1 in numerous cars for strictly the street for many decades, and engines are always clean when I pull a valve cover. But if someone wants synthetic; VR1 does come as a full synthetic also.
 
#22 ·
Thanks for the comments. I forgot to note that I had been using Valvoline or Penzoil with the aftermarket additive. I've got another 250 miles on the car now with no reduction in oil pressure. It's been mild but rainy so I'm waiting for a hot day to finish the real test. I checked the level and noted the oil is a dark green but clear so far. The motor still leaks so the Brad Penn isn't a sealant. Haha.

I'm kinda nutty abouth filters after blowing sponsored filters off the funnycars several times and noting very specific filters on my Dodge diesel truck. I've cut a bunch of filters apart and found all kinds of problems in them related to construction. If I could get Fleetgard for my car locally I would use then. Wix is the next best thing. I order filter kits that contain air, fuel and oil filter for my truck. Been doing this for 15 years. There is tons of info on filters on the Internet.

As for diesel oil. It's undergone radical changes since I got my truck. For a while existing supplies of the old oil were bought up by the truck load by the diesel truck guys. Eventually the oil mfgs changed the oils again for compliance to ever greater emission requirements. Us old truck guys are simply left to rust away. The engine mfg rescued us by showing that more frequent changes saved our day. They apparently are right since I've got some 250k miles since the first major change of oil specs. Using it in cars is questionable in my mind. Diesel oil and filters have to deal with soot from the fuel as well as different temperatures and combustion byproducts. I think the diesel mfgs have many engineers working on this as many trucks go a million miles. The truck is worn out long before the motor. If you ever look at diesel oil at a normal oil change you will see a black that blacker than the darkest horror movie. It doesn't take very long for it to get this way either. I see it in a thousand miles. Frankly I stick to diesel oil for the truck and car oil for the gas burners. I'm not a chemist so I couldn't begin the figure out the oil chemistry. We pay for this in the price of oil. I trust them to do their jobs.

I continue the check the oil every time I go out in the Willys both for level and quality. I've got 20k on the clock and have not adjusted the valve train since I first ran the motor. I don't think the cam is worn and the lifters don't rattle and it hasn't broken any roller rocker arms like everyone said would happen. Knock on the side of my head. Haha. Time will tell.

I'll never run a flat tappet cam again taking a lesson from the car mfgs. They have forced us to change with the times.
 
#23 ·
I've run diesel oil in everything from the lawn mower to my Harleys to the Cessna it seems like forever, a good 40-45 years at least. Yes, no matter what it's in it almost instantly turns black. I expect that's a chemical reaction, every engine I've had to open up for what ever reason (usually a new and improved cam) that was using this stuff (usually DELO) was pristine clean on the inside with very little wear. These gas engines on diesel lube oil just go and go and go, makes it hard to convince the ol' lady that whatever needs a new and imporved engine when you can't wear out the old one.

I agree that the age of the flat tappet cam is over unless you belly up to the bar and spring for nitriding or Parkerizing the bump stick. But that's a cost that rivals the cost of a decent roller cam.

Bogie
 
#24 ·
Oils and additives, the relentless topic

Historically on HRBB this must be one of the most batted around topics ever, it is an important topic no doubt

FWIW

I always use Rotela and 1/2 a bottle of AC Delco engine oil supplement (EOS) mix per 5 litres of oil. Flat tappet cams. Break in or for extended I use same mixture. I sold my 383 to a friend for his 67 Chevy II, had about 7000 miles on it, 3 oil changes. He opened it up to change the pan and oil pump for this application. The metal surfaces and the internals in general were clean as a whistle, bearing surface and cylinder bore wear was almost non existent. I wonder what it would have looked like without the EOS? I don't recommend finding out.
 
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