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Old 12-26-2012, 05:48 PM
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Question for the Pro's

I often hear a person should never shoot one brand of paint over another. They say use a single system from start to finish.
How can companies like MS stay in business as no OEM uses thier product? Do repair shops not use MS products or ?

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Old 12-26-2012, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Fool View Post
I often hear a person should never shoot one brand of paint over another. They say use a single system from start to finish.
How can companies like MS stay in business as no OEM uses thier product? Do repair shops not use MS products or ?


Martin Senour products ARE Sherwin Williams. Not just "made by" Sherwin Williams, we are talking exact same product with a different label on the can, same batch code, same exact product.

But this is all a moot point because the products that are used in production aren't even available to repair shop or anyone else as a rule. They are applied in a way that no repair shop could apply it, they are different products.

The manufactures have accepted products that they recommend, from every manufacturer who has spent the time and money to get that ok. When I was a rep for MS I had a book with all the products oked by the big manufacturers like GM and Ford, a list of Dupont, S-W (MS) PPG, Sikkens, products.

Now, that all being said, applying a PPG primer over the OEM Dupont paint isn't a problem at all. Even applying your Dupont paint over the PPG paint that was painted on you car 10 years ago after an accident. That really isn't an issue at all.

Applying a product over a different manufacturers fully cured product isn't a big deal, it's insoluble (if it's a good product) It's when you are asking the products to intermix, like a clear over another brand of basecoat, that is a HUGE no-no. The base isn't fully cured or dried even, and you are applying another clear over it, not good.

If you are mixing products, what tech sheet do you follow?

HOWEVER, you "can" do it, hell yes you can.

Pro's who know WHAT these products are can get away with it, for instance you are spraying a paint over an epoxy primer of a different manufacturer you follow the tech sheet on the epoxy primer and then you follow the paint's tech sheet as it may refer to spraying over THAT companies epoxy primer. This isn't "that" big of a deal, but it is opening up the door a little bit for trouble.

Your typical quality shop is going to use the same products start to finish, they have a warranty provided by that company BECAUSE they are using all their products. The painters have been trained by them, their products are all that is in the shop, and for this they get a life time warranty like at the shop I work at.

Does it mean the shop isn't a good shop if they mix some products, no not at all. But as a rule, as a rep, funny things often happen in those shops, we called them "Junior chemists" and they had problems, OFTEN. It wasn't so much that they used a different primer or something, it was that they were VERY open to making their own rules, the different primer by it's self wasn't a issue, it was that opened a door, that was just an example of the other hair balled things they did.

If you want to eliminate issues, if you want your project to go as smooth as you can, you stick with all the same products as they are suggested on the tech sheets.

For the home hobbiest, follow the tech sheets, use all the same products from one line and you are going to be WAY better off.

Brian
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:11 PM
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This is a great question and I hope some others will chime in because I look forward to hearing all sides of this discussion.....I have been guilty of using PPG base and dupont clear, as well as using standox base coat and PPG clear. Plus there are apparently shops using SPI products for primer and clear with the quality base coats (mostly BASF from what I understand) of their choice with Barrett-Jackson type results. So is it really a big issue to mix primers, bases and clears as long as all of them are quality products? Now I should say I am referring to compatible and quality products from different manufacturers
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:18 PM
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well then I'm screwed, as I have 3 gallons of duponts top line clear and the reducers and cat. that is before the "envo" 2k stuff..
it was like a c-note a gallon jobber then (late 1999) + reducer + cat.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:21 PM
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If I'm using a clear I'd use that brand's activator but reducer not so important, but do try to keep it in line. I don't put much emphasis on having the same brand base as clear, but probably would if I had a lot more money cause in that case I'd get the top of the line all across the board, and the same brand, with the exception of blockable primers, but from sealer on it would be same brand.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:49 PM
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This is an interesting thread. The way I see it is if a custom paintjob gets damaged and ends up at a body shop to be repaired that shop most likely will not know what brand of paint was used originally. So if a fender or door or quarter have to be blended, they are going to use their brand of paint over the original shoot. So that throws out keep all the same brands with out cross mixing out the window. I have done jobs that were all PPG all the way through as well as mixing transtar primers with ppg bases then prospray clears. As long as you don't mix different brands of activators with others hardeners you should be safe enough. And also follow that brands tech sheets with flash times and mix ratios. Now if your shooting a ppg clear and run out half way through the job and try to finish it of while it is still wet with a different brand of clear, now your introducing a good recipe for disaster as your now mixing different chemicals while still in the flash stage of the paint. But to use a sealer of one brand then a base of another then a clear of yet another, happens a lot of the time. Sure ideally it is nice to work with all the same paint line all the way through, but the truth is that does not always happen.
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:02 PM
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This is a funny subject, sooo many different opinions. First off, you have the people who throw around the "compatible" word. When there is a failure on a forum you will see someone throw out the "your paint wasn't compatible with the primer" or something like that. Seldom is it really an issue IF the replacement is in the same family as the one you should be using.

I am going to throw names out there randomly, they mean nothing other than to make a point.


For instance, if you were shooting PPG urethane primer for surfacing that you are then going to shoot Dupont paint over it, it's still urethane primer what difference could there be from using the Dupont Urethane primer? It isn't like you are using house paint or something, it's urethane primer for goodness sakes. But then you have someone who swears by that PPG urethane primer it is so much better than the Dupont so they are going to use it. Think about this, if it is SOOO much better, than it IS "different" in some way right?

But tell me, why not just use all the same products? Why mix and match at all?

If there is one thing I learned as a paint rep, most every company sells a pretty similar product, if you are comparing apples and apples. Sure if you used some PPG value line paint and it didn't cover very well and then you shot some Dupont top the line paint it covers way better so you want to use the Dupont over that PPG primer. Why not just get the top of the line PPG paint? If you are comparing apples and oranges of course they may appear to be miles different, the apples and apples are way closer, if not pretty much the same.

I went around to shops all over the state of California (mostly northern Cal) and saw every brand there is performing perfectly for people.That old "Oh XXXX paint sucks, it's horrible" stuff cracked me up. Oh yeah I would think to my self, XXXX is horrible, that's why there are 50 thousand shops in America using it, your COMPETITOR is using it and he is putting out twice the work you are, oh yeah, it's junk.

No paint rep can walk into a shop and blow them away with some product that is far better than what that shop COULD be using in their paint line. I say could be because often they were using some out dated junk like Dupont lacquer primer painting tractors and you come in and show them epoxy and blow their minds. They could have done the same thing with the Dupont, but the Dupont rep didn't show them the epoxy.

So if most any paint line (apples and apples remember) can give you a good system, why mix and match? If you want cheap, go with the value line if you want top of the line go with the top of the line. If you want super durable go with the "fleet" line that they sell to trucking companies.

Choose apples or oranges and then go with the whole line, why not?

Brian
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:18 PM
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I've always mixed products since I started. And even more in the last ohh 10 years, since the majors have got so ridiculous on prices. And the majors value lines suck, I feel there are much better products from some smaller companies that are around the same price is the majors value lines. Can't remember any catastrophes in all the years mixing brands. Of course there are certain things you should never mix. One companys hardener usually doesn't work in a different companies paint, and many different mixing ratios out ther. You should always should use the correct hardeners for what you are using (there are companies that actually make hardeners to use in certain ppg, dupont ect paints, but I've never used them) About the only thing I've used a different brand hardener in is enamel at some jobs that had a universal hardener.

And certain lines you must use there reducer in, because there are more then just solvents in their reducer. Dupont chromabase, crossfire, reactive reducer. If its a line you could use another reducer in without it causing major problems, you must use a high enough grade of reducer. You should never use something like ppg omni reducer in ppg deltron line, although you could use Deltron reducer in omni.

But all in all, I find most companys undercoats and topcoats are pretty compatable with one another, so long as you mix the product you are using itself with the proper stuff. Of course, they would like you to use only their product, more sales for them. They do design products to work together, but you can mix lines. No blowups I remember mixing products yet that I remember anyways. You won't get any warranty, but unless you are some big shop with an account, probably wouldn't anyways.

Now if using certain things like rust convertors and other so called miracle products, well all bets are off.
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:30 PM
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The thing of it is even if you stay in the same paint line there is always a rare chance you will still have a problem. I have a friend that works in a body shop in the boston area and has been doing body and paint a long time, so occasionally he will work on one of his own cars when things slow down a little. This plymouth he did about a year ago, was done with all high end PPG, no cross mixing. A few days after it was painted he went to blow off some dust out of the engine compartment and don't you know the clear just blew right off the car in sheets. Now this is a guy that does this day in and day out, using one line of paint and still has a problem and a big deal at that. Of course his jobber supplied all new base and clear, but he was stuck on all labor. So just because you stick with all the same high or low end paint lines don't think that some freak incident can't occur.
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:41 PM
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I've always mixed products since I started. And even more in the last ohh 10 years, since the majors have got so ridiculous on prices. And the majors value lines suck, I feel there are much better products from some smaller companies that are around the same price is the majors value lines. Can't remember any catastrophes in all the years mixing brands. Of course there are certain things you should never mix. One companys hardener usually doesn't work in a different companies paint, and many different mixing ratios out ther. You should always should use the correct hardeners for what you are using (there are companies that actually make hardeners to use in certain ppg, dupont ect paints, but I've never used them) About the only thing I've used a different brand hardener in is enamel at some jobs that had a universal hardener.

And certain lines you must use there reducer in, because there are more then just solvents in their reducer. Dupont chromabase, crossfire, reactive reducer. If its a line you could use another reducer in without it causing major problems, you must use a high enough grade of reducer. You should never use something like ppg omni reducer in ppg deltron line, although you could use Deltron reducer in omni.

But all in all, I find most companys undercoats and topcoats are pretty compatable with one another, so long as you mix the product you are using itself with the proper stuff. Of course, they would like you to use only their product, more sales for them. They do design products to work together, but you can mix lines. No blowups I remember mixing products yet that I remember anyways. You won't get any warranty, but unless you are some big shop with an account, probably wouldn't anyways.

Now if using certain things like rust convertors and other so called miracle products, well all bets are off.
Could not have said it better myself........
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mr4speed View Post
This is an interesting thread. The way I see it is if a custom paintjob gets damaged and ends up at a body shop to be repaired that shop most likely will not know what brand of paint was used originally. So if a fender or door or quarter have to be blended, they are going to use their brand of paint over the original shoot. So that throws out keep all the same brands with out cross mixing out the window. I have done jobs that were all PPG all the way through as well as mixing transtar primers with ppg bases then prospray clears. As long as you don't mix different brands of activators with others hardeners you should be safe enough. And also follow that brands tech sheets with flash times and mix ratios. Now if your shooting a ppg clear and run out half way through the job and try to finish it of while it is still wet with a different brand of clear, now your introducing a good recipe for disaster as your now mixing different chemicals while still in the flash stage of the paint. But to use a sealer of one brand then a base of another then a clear of yet another, happens a lot of the time. Sure ideally it is nice to work with all the same paint line all the way through, but the truth is that does not always happen.
couldn't have said it better.
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Old 12-27-2012, 04:12 AM
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if there wasn't "fear" of one brand not working with someone elses,
no shop would stock or spray "sealer"
they'd just prime..
so the b/s that it doesn't matter is b/s.. as you'd skip the use of sealer and save both time and money..
anyone that says it don't matter, ask if they are spray'n a sealer coat. if they are, they were talking out their corn hole..
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Old 12-27-2012, 05:49 AM
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[QUOTE=mr4speed;1627435]This is an interesting thread. The way I see it is if a custom paintjob gets damaged and ends up at a body shop to be repaired that shop most likely will not know what brand of paint was used originally. So if a fender or door or quarter have to be blended, they are going to use their brand of paint over the original shoot. So that throws out keep all the same brands with out cross mixing out the window. I have done jobs that were all PPG all the way through as well as mixing transtar primers with ppg bases then prospray clears. As long as you don't mix different brands of activators with others hardeners you should be safe enough. And also follow that brands tech sheets with flash times and mix ratios. Now if your shooting a ppg clear and run out half way through the job and try to finish it of while it is still wet with a different brand of clear, now your introducing a good recipe for disaster as your now mixing different chemicals while still in the flash stage of the paint. But to use a sealer of one brand then a base of another then a clear of yet another, happens a lot of the time. Sure ideally it is nice to work with all the same paint line all the way through, but the truth is that does not always happen.

Thats what I was trying to say just worded much much better . I don't for see a problem as long as the activators arent switched around randomly mixing things. Or trying to "wet on wet" with two different products. I guess this is like the ford, chevy, dodge argument....everyone has their own opinion and reasons for them. Just like some shops swear by PPG, or dupont, glasurit etc.
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gearheadslife View Post
if there wasn't "fear" of one brand not working with someone elses,
no shop would stock or spray "sealer"
they'd just prime..
so the b/s that it doesn't matter is b/s.. as you'd skip the use of sealer and save both time and money..
anyone that says it don't matter, ask if they are spray'n a sealer coat. if they are, they were talking out their corn hole..
The only reason I spray a sealer is I always have sand throughs somewhere or another and bare metal on edges, as far as protecting one brand from another with a sealer just not true. As mentioned earlier above have sprayed different brands of primer, then a different brand of sealer, then a different brand of base and clear as well. There are a lot of guys on this forum that shoot SPI epoxy as a sealer then their own brand of base then come back with SPI clear. So the arguement is pretty much moot right there.
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Old 12-27-2012, 04:01 PM
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The only reason I spray a sealer is I always have sand throughs somewhere or another and bare metal on edges, as far as protecting one brand from another with a sealer just not true. As mentioned earlier above have sprayed different brands of primer, then a different brand of sealer, then a different brand of base and clear as well. There are a lot of guys on this forum that shoot SPI epoxy as a sealer then their own brand of base then come back with SPI clear. So the arguement is pretty much moot right there.
really, so when you do a repaint over the factory coat, and don't go to metal, you don't spray a sealer coat ?, your first coat is hybuild primer???
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