A quick question about titles and legal stuff. - Page 5 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Hotrodding Basics
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #61 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2007, 10:38 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 307
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
oldred. You are wrong and I don't know why you are so obsessed with this. George Bush won't admit he made a mistake either.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #62 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2007, 11:23 AM
OneMoreTime's Avatar
Hotrodders.com moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Health and safety in the shop or garage
Last journal entry: Yard Dog pic
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington State
Age: 69
Posts: 7,222
Wiki Edits: 3

Thanks: 38
Thanked 124 Times in 120 Posts
Boy this question sure created a lot of controversy!!! Here one gets a car and rebuilds it then takes it for an inspection with proof of purchase of all major components including titles of any parts cars and a salvage title is issued with the vin that is on the vehicle..Or an assigned vin may be issued in some cases say on a kit car or reproduction car. The State Patrol does the inspection. Out of state cars have to go through this as well in order to be issued a Wa State registration and plates. Once in a while someone gets caught trying something nefarious and has some explaining to do.

So now some guy in the future buys the car it will come with a salvage title and be priced according to the market. It is not all that difficult if one follows the procedure. Most of the folks around here that rebuild cars know this and go accordingly.

Now if you are a licensed business such as a body shop, wrecking yard, scrapper or such one would know all about this and how to deal with it. Some fellows will not deal with it at all because it can be a PITA to deal with and there are other things to do.

Sam
__________________
I have tried most all of it and now do what is known to work..

Last edited by OneMoreTime; 05-03-2007 at 11:26 AM. Reason: Forgot something
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #63 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2007, 11:37 AM
home brew's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Body and exterior tips Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Pense, Sk, Canada
Age: 68
Posts: 7,050
Wiki Edits: 1

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I have been following this thread with interest. I will now throw in another example as I would like to know what both sides of this debate think about this example.

This is an example only. An owner of a 38 Ford coupe with title that has been rolled and sitting on its roof for twenty years buys the car. It is complete with frame. The body has been scrunched and is unusable but the frame is usable.

The same owner buys a 38 Ford tudor with title with a reusable body which has been sitting in the weeds and the frame is completely rusted and unusable.

The owner takes the coupe frame and uses the body of the tudor on it. How is the completed car too be titled? Is it a 38 tudor or a 38 coupe.

For those that don't know the serial number of both cars are on the frame in three different places but there are no serial numbers on the bodies as Ford didn't put them there. In this example the coupe frame has been rebodied and the only serial number is that of the coupe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #64 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2007, 11:54 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 307
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I have a 38 Ford coupe and all it says on the original title is 1938 Ford 2 dr. If the shoe fits, wear it.
Bob
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #65 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2007, 12:08 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,909
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob C
oldred. You are wrong and I don't know why you are so obsessed with this. George Bush won't admit he made a mistake either.
Would you like to make a bet on that? Most everyone else who has replied is smart enough to know better so everyone must be wrong but you and joe, ok Tennessee law (They refer to vehicle serial no.)- As has been stated there are legal ways of changing parts such as cowls that require tampering with the VIN but it is not as simple as taking one from another vehicle and placing it on another without notifying anybody.


55-5-112. Altering or changing engine or serial number fraudulently a felony — Permissible restorations. —



(a) No person shall with fraudulent intent deface, destroy or alter the manufacturer's serial, engine or transmission number or other distinguishing NUMBER or IDENTIFICATION MARK of a motor vehicle or its component parts, nor shall any person place or stamp any serial, engine, transmission or other number or mark upon a motor vehicle or its component parts, except one (1) assigned thereto by the division. A violation of this subsection (a) is a CLASS E FELONY.



(b) This section shall not prohibit the RESTORATION of a vehicle identification number upon a motor vehicle or motor vehicle component part BY THE COMMISSIONER OF SAFETY or the COMMISSIONER'S DESIGNEE, nor prevent any manufacturer from placing in the ordinary course of business numbers or marks upon motor vehicles or motor vehicle component parts thereof.

It says by the Commissioner or designee NOT by the owner! Bob think for a second, what is the VIN for? if you could just swap them around at will they would be meaningless. Call the DMV and tell them you want to take a VIN tag from one car body and place it on another, MAKE THAT CALL!

OMT, There are legal ways of dealing with the situation you described and it would vary somewhat from state to state. As far as junk yards and such dealing with this, I deal with it quite often and I, along with others doing the same thing, know quite well that what is being proposed here is illegal.

Last edited by oldred; 05-03-2007 at 12:18 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #66 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2007, 05:52 PM
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Mopar tapered axle rear brake conversion
Last journal entry: What I'm doing now...
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,267
Wiki Edits: 49

Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by edgewoodrx
I think this bears a revisit:

I had a Chevelle with a rusty cowl. I replaced the cowl section with a donor El Camino. I could not register a Chevelle as an El Camino. I changed VIN's. I owned both cars. It was not an SS or LS6, etc. Plain Jane Malibu. No theft, no intent to defraud, nothing.

I stand behind my decision and would fight tooth & nail in any court of law if attempted to prove otherwise. If I were unethical and tried to pass off a high dollar car, that would be wrong. Illegal?--not for me to decide. Maybe--I emphasize maybe, I should have involved the DMV. I think reasonable man theory applies here and I did the best thing. I really believe the "alteration/removal" was justifried.

Can anyone out there really argue with me on this one? To make a blanket statement that swapping VIN's is wrong is off the mark. There are exceptions
You did exactly what the law requires.

1. You replaced the area where the original VIN tag was affixed to the vehicle.
2. You removed the original VIN tag from the original (damaged) part and installed it on the replacement part which had been installed on the vehicle.

According to the law (you are the owner) and the removal and replacement of the original VIN tag was required for reasonable repair of the vehicle.

Bottom line your Chevelle has a replacement cowl which now has the original VIN tag (for the Chevelle) back in it's proper location. That's what the law allows. If you had switched the VIN tags or installed one that didn't originally come on your Chevelle it would have been illegal.

Those out there who seem to think switching VIN tags is no big deal are just plain WRONG and it's ILLEGAL! All you have to do is ask a lawyer, a State Police officer, or anyone at your local DMV, and you'll get the same answer.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #67 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2007, 06:19 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,909
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
I think the problem here is that some are arguing that using the whole body would be the same as just swapping the cowl but it is not the same regardless of what has been said. It would be hard to argue that swapping the body was "necessary for reasonable repair" no matter how much it might seem to us, to the law it is another car. On a unibody like a Mustang you would not be swapping the body anyway you would be swapping the engine and interior into the donor and you would not get a judge to believe otherwise. Also just swapping the cowl and simply placing the original VIN tag back on the new cowl can be a Grey area and would not be allowed here (except in accordance with the rules) in Tennessee along with, I am sure, some other states. As per the law I listed in my previous post here you would need to submit to the state and a "designee of the safety commissioner" would have to approve the swap. When shopping for the salvage cars I have worked on the last couple of years I have heard more than once at the sale "that one is parts only because the cowl is damaged", I am not saying the cowl can not be changed legally but it is such a hassle that it hurts the value of the car. As I said before that VIN is a big deal whether someone wants to believe it or not and it is not a simple matter of just replacing it and I truly believe that standing before that judge and trying to explain to him that swapping the body is the same as repairing the old one will be an exercise in futility!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #68 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2007, 06:31 PM
tfeverfred's Avatar
Registered User
 

Last journal entry: 2 photoshoots.
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 186
Wiki Edits: 1

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts
Auto theft and insurance fraud are problems that plague owners and auto insurers alike. One of the ways to combat these problems has been to include a vehicle identification number (VIN) with each vehicle. A VIN is a set of alphanumeric characters, which contain valuable information about the history of the vehicle. The VIN follows along with vehicle ownership changes, accident history, insurance and warranty claims, recalls, thefts, registrations of and liens against the vehicle, and includes specific information such as country of origin, automobile manufacturer, body type, vehicle line, braking system and a unique serial number, year, make and model. On vehicles, trucks and motorcycles, VINs appear as small engravings, or on stickers or plates, at several locations on the vehicle. Typical vehicle theft schemes involve VIN-switching and other fraudulent practices such as: the illicit transfer of VINs from wrecked vehicles to similar ones that have been stolen; the "cloning" of VINs (a legitimate VIN, perhaps from a vehicle in a parking lot or driveway, is used to change the legal identity of a stolen vehicle of the same make, model and color). Therefore, VINs provide little protection from vehicle theft or insurance fraud due to these inherent drawbacks.


You don't have to call the DMV or a lawyer. Call your insurance company and ask him to fax you the answer. Above is the response you will get. or you can click this link and get it even simpler.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/vin1.htm


I'm done with this too. ( for real this time ) I can't beleive this has gone so far. Truly amazing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #69 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2007, 07:28 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 307
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
This is what I would consider a rebody. http://www.acrodz.com/gallery/66-Mustang/P1010001a
Finding and using a shell that is at least repairable. This isn't a rebody, I repaired this one because you can buy any part you need for Mustangs. I wouldn't just switch tags, and I agree that would be and should be illegal.


As far as the Boss 302 that I refered to in an earlier post, it is so bad that the owner wanted to find another shell. After several discussions with him, I recommended that we repair the original body. He agreed and the body is at the stripper.
http://www.acrodz.com/gallery/projects/P1010006b

However, I wouldn't hesitate to replace a body shell if parts weren't available.
Bob
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #70 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2007, 07:45 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,909
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Bob I think that may be the misunderstanding here, there is no reason not to replace a body but in the case of that Mustang you would not be replacing the body on the original you would be replacing the drive train and the interior/trim on the donor, what's the difference? Swapping the VIN tag on the body! It's been raining here and I guess I have too much time on my hands right now so I probably have said far too much but I know for a fact that I would go to jail if I did to one of the salvage cars what you are suggesting and rebuilding a wreck is no different than rebuilding a rusty classic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #71 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2007, 08:35 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 307
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
Bob I think that may be the misunderstanding here, there is no reason not to replace a body but in the case of that Mustang you would not be replacing the body on the original you would be replacing the drive train and the interior/trim on the donor, what's the difference? Swapping the VIN tag on the body! It's been raining here and I guess I have too much time on my hands right now so I probably have said far too much but I know for a fact that I would go to jail if I did to one of the salvage cars what you are suggesting and rebuilding a wreck is no different than rebuilding a rusty classic.
I've never said anything about salvage cars. Switching tags on those is definitely illegal and that's where the misunderstanding is. That is criminal intent. A restoration with legal parts has no criminal intent.
Bob
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #72 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2007, 09:13 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,909
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
There would be no more criminal intent on those cars than what you wanted to do with that Boss 302 since I would legally own both cars and no theft of parts or entire cars would be involved. It would be no different at all except for the accident damage vs rust damage. It is quite apparent no one is going to convince you of anything so go ahead and play your word games but I doubt a judge would be very amused, it is your arse anyway and most people know better. When I mentioned this little debate to my partner last night (who owns a wrecking yard) he just laughed and said "I hope he can get along with big Bubba!" as I said most people know better.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Hotrodding Basics posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Legal stuff & questions... jemo General Rodding Tech 4 12-12-2003 10:09 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.