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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2005, 03:09 PM
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Rear Drum Difficulties

So, the other day I was going to work (the day after I put a battery in that girl's audi if you remember that thread I had), and noticed that a creaking noise from the back drivers side wheel area came from just accelerating at a green light... as well as during these creaky noises that sound like a stuck parking brake the brake pedal was as mushy was warm jello.

Well today I had the time to jack the back end of the GrandAm up in the cold and icy driveway, take the tire off, and check the guts. This is what I found and these are my concerns...

1. aren't the shoe clips (where they attatch) supposed to be vertical, as in (), not tilted?
2. the seal on the left (back) side of the cylinder is leaking
3. it looks like someone, sometime tried to jack the car up by that control arm? *see bad side, and good side pics for comparo* I'm not sure what part that is but it's bent. See other pics for comparision.
4. What parts will I need for repair? The control arm thing I'll prolly snatch from the local boneyard since they really dont't wear out, but otherwise I'll see the friendly people at Auto Master's (mom-n-pop speed shop) or NAPA.
5. Any how-to would be appreciated.

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.
-matt
EDIT: that little puddle under the brake, that's DOT3.
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Old 12-18-2005, 05:17 PM
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Doesnt make any difference to the shoes how they are tilted... Some come that way for some of the other hardware... You will find that you cannot change the wheel cylinders without loosening the hub mounting bolts a considerable amount... This is to allow the hub flange to open away from the backing plate to let the wheel cylinder go between them... Also the shoes on those cars are the same on each side (does not have a primary & secondary shoe)... I normaly work them with a large flat blade screwdriver to pop out the spring (large wishbone type) from each shoe... I re-install the spring with a pair of channel locks, its a little tricky but is no biggie... Just be sure to clean everything after you remove 1 side at a time (leave the other side intact till you have your first side complete)

Oh and BTW you can simply clamp the brake hose (dont smash it just moderate pressure) and when the assembly is complete on that side just remove the clamp and bleed it via gravity (remove the master cylinder top and be sure its full)...
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Old 12-18-2005, 05:24 PM
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Matt - I don't know what wheels you have on your ride, sometimes aftermarket wheels hit the balance weight on the drums and cause them to run out of round. When this happens, the brakes get severly out of adjustment and could cause the problems that your talking about. Another thing too, if fluid is present when you peel back the dust boots on the wheel cylinder, the cylinder bore is probably pitted and the cup is worn out. You can either hone and kit you old cylinder of replace it. Personally, I'd replace it.
Hope that helps.
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Old 12-18-2005, 05:53 PM
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I plan on replacing the cylinder, oh yes it's a 2000 since I didn't mention the model year earlier.

It has over 130,000 on it already, had 116,000 when I got it.
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Old 12-18-2005, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevelleSS_LS6
So, the other day I was going to work (the day after I put a battery in that girl's audi if you remember that thread I had), and noticed that a creaking noise from the back drivers side wheel area came from just accelerating at a green light... as well as during these creaky noises that sound like a stuck parking brake the brake pedal was as mushy was warm jello.

Well today I had the time to jack the back end of the GrandAm up in the cold and icy driveway, take the tire off, and check the guts. This is what I found and these are my concerns...

1. aren't the shoe clips (where they attatch) supposed to be vertical, as in (), not tilted?
2. the seal on the left (back) side of the cylinder is leaking
3. it looks like someone, sometime tried to jack the car up by that control arm? *see bad side, and good side pics for comparo* I'm not sure what part that is but it's bent. See other pics for comparision.
4. What parts will I need for repair? The control arm thing I'll prolly snatch from the local boneyard since they really dont't wear out, but otherwise I'll see the friendly people at Auto Master's (mom-n-pop speed shop) or NAPA.
5. Any how-to would be appreciated.

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.
-matt
EDIT: that little puddle under the brake, that's DOT3.
you need to replace the Cylinder, and shoes. Once the shoes get fluid soaked you will never get all the fluid out of them. Personally I would change both cylinders. They are fairly cheap and you already have it apart. They are kinda like headlights, always change them in pairs. Make sure when you have it apart you clean everything to get the fluid off so it doesnt contaminate the new shoes.
CHECK EVERYTHING TWICE, WITH BRAKES IT COULD MEAN YOUR LIFE.
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Old 12-19-2005, 08:25 PM
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alrightie guys, my best friend and I went at the thing today, and on the backside of the cylinder there's 2 torx bolts, and I couldn't find anything that would get em out, considering that there's about 1 1/2 inches (3cm?) between that and the assembly the backside of the drum brake and shock absorber and other supension parts connect to.

So, I have no idea what is happening now, parents are out of town and dad said wait til they get back and he'll look at it (complaining about the cold as usual), and at the moment it shall sit. And my twin brother will drive me where I need to be like a 15 year old with his first job.
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Old 12-19-2005, 09:38 PM
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A 12 point 1/4" box end wrench which is of course very small will work real nice... Craftsman makes one that will do the trick...
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Old 12-20-2005, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumpstick
A 12 point 1/4" box end wrench which is of course very small will work real nice... Craftsman makes one that will do the trick...
I think it's a torx, kinda wierd looking like a star. I can't seem to find anything that will fit. I also removed the 4 bolts holding the hub on (can't see em in the pics, gotta remove shoes and springs and all), hit it with the rubber hammer today and it just sat there still attatched.

I was hoping the hub was attatched to the plate that the cylinder is attatched to so I could remove the hub/plate assembly and get em easy.

Yea, I said I was going to have a garage do it... but I am bored.
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Old 12-20-2005, 01:07 PM
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If it looks like a reverse torx (outie instead of innie), a 1/4" socket or wrench will work. I use a 6 point on those GM cylinders. You could just buy the special socket. They probably have it at the 'zone.

Your hub is probably just stuck. After the 4 bolts come out, it should only be held in by age and rust. Watch the ABS wire if equipped. Once the hub comes off, the only thing holding the plate on should be the cylinder line, parking cable, and age/rust. They are easier to work with if you leave it together.

There is a special tool for that type of horseshoe spring. I have never used it, though I wish I had it. I find them to be a PITA. I generally R&R the cylinder first, and replace 1 shoe at a time, holding the spring out with a small prybar or big screwdriver against the hub, but that method kinda doesn't work too well when you need to clean off all the nasty fluid on the backing plate.
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Old 12-21-2005, 05:23 PM
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good info there! I'll see if I can beat the hub and drum backing plate off the car.

Last edited by ChevelleSS_LS6; 12-21-2005 at 07:59 PM. Reason: ummm, do I need to say?
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Old 12-21-2005, 07:25 PM
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I agree with (yesgo) just stuck or frozen from the pic`s of the ice and snow...

Oh and might want to edit this...?
Quote:
I'll see if I can beat it off tonight
LOL...
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Old 12-21-2005, 08:01 PM
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Pictures! YAYYYYYYYYY!

the first 2 have arrows and circles and the other is kinda apparent.

Nope, I couldn't get the parts knocked off. I considered using a small propane torch to see if that would help but I don't feel like starting fires in the garage.
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Old 12-21-2005, 08:56 PM
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Timely edit
DONT use propane or any other heat if you have ABS and intend to keep it.

They are definitely the typical outie (male) torx. You will need a 6 point 1/4" WRench to loosen them, or at least the one close to the knuckle. Or you'll have to pop the hub and plate loose to use a socket. If the hub wont come loose, keep looking for what is holding it. If nothing, use a bigger hammer, seriously. (do not hit harder with small hammer). The bearing/hub can always be replaced if it becomes noisy. I tap the rusty ones with a short handle 4# sledge. Tap. Tap. If you have a slide hammer/hub attachemnt, even better.

If the male torx is starting to round, you will need to find the correct socket. If impossible, they can be chiseled off, and replaced (in new cylinder). The hub and plate will need to come loose to get the new bolt in. IIRC it is a 6mm thread. Short.

Last edited by yesgo; 12-21-2005 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 12-22-2005, 08:43 AM
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Alright, parents are home, dad wants his car in the garage and I want my car on the road, so we're goin at it today. I'll post an update later and tell ya how it goes and what we end up doing with it.

many thanks to yesgo, if we had a karma meter or reputation rating system I'd give you a positve for your contributions. Some other forums have a system like this.
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Old 12-24-2005, 11:11 AM
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My dad and I couldn't get the hub assembly off or anything, and the wheel cylinders were 'really smooth' so we got rebuild kits, and the rest of it was of little trouble.

So, now I have some torx sockets if I need them sometime

Thanks guys!
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