rear suspension choice - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Suspension - Brakes - Steering
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 01-13-2006, 02:48 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: syracuse ny
Posts: 4
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
rear suspension choice

i have a 1963 nova ss. I put the heidt's super ll front sub frame into it.
i have a 525 hp 383 stroker backed with a Muncie 4 speed m22.
i'm looking at 2 choices on the rear end.
one choice is the heidt's superide irs.
the other is a 4 link ford 9 inch.
is one better then the other for getting out of the hole,
or are they close to each other?

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 01-13-2006, 02:54 PM
lowROLLERchevy's Avatar
... & Insanity Ensues .....
 
Last wiki edit: The FREE T Bucket plans Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Western NY
Age: 35
Posts: 937
Wiki Edits: 22

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
the 9" by far, an IRS isnt going to hook up like a 4 link setup will

but at the same time, a 4 link isnt going to have the kind of ride quality the IRS will on the street
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 01-13-2006, 02:55 PM
lowROLLERchevy's Avatar
... & Insanity Ensues .....
 
Last wiki edit: The FREE T Bucket plans Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Western NY
Age: 35
Posts: 937
Wiki Edits: 22

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
...........

Last edited by lowROLLERchevy; 01-13-2006 at 02:57 PM. Reason: Double post
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 01-13-2006, 08:22 PM
xntrik's Avatar
Save a horse, Ride a Cowboy.
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 5,131
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
I would do the 9" with either a 4-bar or a 4-link depending upon your ultimate goals.

The 4-link is better for hole shots.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 01-15-2006, 05:36 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Yackandandah.Australia.
Age: 52
Posts: 641
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Xntrik is right, never met an irs that hooked up.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 01-15-2006, 05:52 AM
Will I ever get it done?
 

Last journal entry: Rear Armrests
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Tulsa, OK
Age: 57
Posts: 1,049
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanRiordan
Xntrik is right, never met an irs that hooked up.
While I will agree 100% with going with the 9 inch and a 4 link, you need to go here:
http://www.racesupercars.com/speednews_current.html
and go about 3/4 down the page and watch the video of the 8.90 pass @ 151.7 irs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01-15-2006, 11:37 AM
BillyShope's Avatar
Philippines Cowboy
 

Last journal entry: THE TRACTION DYNO
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Orlando, FL
Age: 78
Posts: 875
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 13 Times in 7 Posts
I guess I'll have to be the one voice of disagreement. The IRS will ALWAY hook up better than the 4link beam axle IF (and here's the hooker) the suspension is not set up...as are most IRS suspensions...with an indecent amount of squat.

Here's the problem: The IRS, in a production car, is usually hailed as a contributor to a superior ride. This comes with the reduction in unsprung weight. But, to acheve this smooth ride, anti-squat characteristics are pretty much ignored. To understand why this has to be, we have to look at the no squat/no rise lines for a beam axle and for an IRS. For a beam axle, this is, when viewed from the side, an infinitely long line, passing through the rear tire patches, and having a slope equal to the CG height divided by the wheelbase. The equivalent line for an IRS has the same slope, but passes through the axle centerline. In other words, it's displaced upward by the tire radius. So, in order to get 100% anti-squat with an IRS, it's necessary to angle the links upward more severely than for a beam axle. The result, if you were to do this, would be a much harsher ride.

But, since a boulevard ride is not a top priority for either a competition car or a street rod, there's no reason why the instant center can't be placed on or near the no squat/no rise line with the IRS.

Now, once this is done, what advantage does the IRS have over the beam axle? It holds a very real advantage, in that the rear tires are equally loaded during launch. This can be achieved with a beam axle, but it's not the easiest trick in the world!

Having said all this, would I give full support to the IRS? Well, not exactly. The reason I would hold back full support centers on the matter of reliability. The 9 inch Ford and 4link setup has a tremendous history of reliability under the harshest of dragstrip conditions. The IRS, on the other hand, is generally mistrusted by those who consider all its component parts and the possibility of any one of those breaking during launch.

So, it's up to you. Personally, I'd go with the IRS and just see what breaks first. But, you might not be willing to do that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2006, 05:27 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Yackandandah.Australia.
Age: 52
Posts: 641
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
G'day Billy, feel older today? It's late here and as usual a monday is the buisiest night. An irs will achieve equal loading if it is fed by 2 counter rotating driveshafts -otherwise dumb ol' me just cant see it.
You're mostly right about anti - squat, the DE DION rear is due for its 100th birthday and most CHEAP irs designs borrow heavily from it. The Corvette is different in that it tries to use a torque link per side to load the rear tyre. Unfortunately using the transverse leaf as a lower link throws the rear into radical neg camber(squat).
Most semi trailing arm rears - BMW, lopo Benz, Alfa, Fiat ( found in a tip or fix it again tony) have no built in anti squat and suffer the breakage and traction problems associated with this design. Pre 1990 Benz V8's and some porsches had anti squat, but unless the road was perfect they would rattle your fillings with axle hop.
As we know to hook up ,a car must undergo a significant weight transfer. Now if, as you point out we should ignore the advantages re ride quality then just what the hell are we fitting an irs for? Neg camber on compression will improve cornering, but isn't that squat?
We now see 5 and 6 link (per side) rears, but most suffer unusual tyre wear. If they scrub is it fair to assume they are binding through travel? This helps neither accelerative nor lateral traction.
Sorry cuz, am I missing something here? I live in a mountain region and have a fair bit of on/off road experience in a vast array of vehicles, but as I said earlier. I have yet to find an irs car that would hook up. My lopo semi trailing 96 Statesman is a joke compared to my leaf sprung 72 HQ ute.
Bash your kids, they should have sent you a card.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2006, 05:55 AM
BillyShope's Avatar
Philippines Cowboy
 

Last journal entry: THE TRACTION DYNO
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Orlando, FL
Age: 78
Posts: 875
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 13 Times in 7 Posts
No, Ian, I don't feel any older today and, incidentally, those people who say that, when you turn 70, you become a septegenarian are wrong! I enjoy meat as much as I ever did.

As for weight transfer, rather than repeat them, I'll just refer you to my WEIGHT TRANSFER comments at my Project Journal.

And, yes, you're missing something on an IRS. The weight transfer, with an IRS, is distributed equally because the driveshaft torque is reacted by the chassis mounting for the center section and not...as with a beam axle...the rear tires. This is a very significant advantage for the IRS.

You can verify this with the simple test described in my THE TRACTION DYNO comments, also at my Project Journal.

So, if you have two cars, identical even to the fact that both have the rear suspension instant center on the no squat/no rise line, BUT one has an IRS, the IRS car will have superior traction due to the equal loading of the rear tires.

But, someone might say, the IRS car can experience toe and camber changes during launch. True, but, if I wanted to be picky, I could point out that the beam axle also experiences deflections. The point is that, in either case, the deflections can be either controlled or anticipated. And, of course, if there is no squat or rise, the camber change problem disappears.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2006, 10:37 PM
bonuts's Avatar
Got Ouzo for touzo
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: C-eh N-eh D-eh
Age: 32
Posts: 416
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I don't know if you've looked into total cost involved, but they make a nice 4 link set-up, with subframe connectors pretty cheap. This is what I'm doing with my Nova http://www.totalcostinvolved.com/pro...cfm?prodID=227


bonuts
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2006, 04:55 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Yackandandah.Australia.
Age: 52
Posts: 641
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Sorry Vibbit and Billy, as you may gather I have a view on this whole situation, but as I have spent the last 3 days dealing with family illness, and as I just got home at 10:55pm after a 530 mile round trip to attend a friend's funeral I hope you understand that my ability as a wordsmith is open to question.
Please give me a day or two and I hope to present you both with an enlightened viewpoint. Thanks,
Ian.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Suspension - Brakes - Steering posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
this is a saver.... GM build codes TooMany2count General Rodding Tech 24 11-23-2009 09:36 AM
Rear suspension: reworked or modified. Nightrider Suspension - Brakes - Steering 2 05-29-2005 08:35 AM
Install Corvette C4 Rear Suspension in Tri-5 Chevy usmade55 Suspension - Brakes - Steering 2 12-15-2004 10:07 AM
Rear gear choice, Gear to Tow icegnome Transmission - Rearend 3 12-03-2002 07:17 AM
rear suspension on street rod 455 Ken Suspension - Brakes - Steering 7 03-11-2002 05:02 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.