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Old 12-14-2004, 08:50 AM
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Received my quote to build up a 383

383 kit
Callies Dragon Slayer crank(complete kit)
JE SRP pistons
C&A Rings
CL 77 Bearings
Assembly & Balance $2,200

1 Dart Block $1,650
1 Cloyes True Set $85
1 GM timing chain cover $20
set cam bolts $10
1 timing chain $28
1 Damper ATI $275
1 moroso pan 7qts $195
1 moroso pick up $35
1 melling z28 pump $38
Gaskets complete fel pro set $120
Hydrolic roller cam $259
Hydrloi roller lifters(CC 885) $475
magnum lifters
Brass cam gear shim $ 6
Total parts $5,396

Block:
Boil $120
instal cam bearings
Square deck $110
Bore and Hone - Fit hone
With plate $175
Notch for 383 $175

Total Parts and Labor $6,396

This also includes assembly of using my AFR heads, intake and carb. Ready to drop in motor.

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Old 12-14-2004, 08:58 AM
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Another way of thinking.
GM Crate 12498772 Performance Engine GMPP,
ZZ383/425, HT 383 with Fast Burn heads. Hot Street Engine With 425 HP @ 5400 RPM. SBC crate engine. $4,750.00 with a 12 month 12k warrenty.
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Old 12-14-2004, 10:27 AM
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TCAMARO,
The price he gave you is not bad. To me it is a little overkill for what you are doing. There are a lot of top dollar parts listed that in my opinion you don't need. The problem is if he is going to stand behind it you probably need to do it his way.

If that quote is in your budget and you feel good about it then go for it.

1bad made a good point about the GM engine. It even comes with heads, intake, carb, distibutor, oil pan, etc... so you are comparing the price of a complete engine (GM) to the price of a short block (your machinist).

If you were really going to race or beat on the car I would say, your machine shop is on the right track. I got the impression you were not going to see the track and didn't want to run the car hard (ie.. no sub frame connectors).

To me it seems like a lot of coin for a street cruiser engine. You will have a conversation piece though, that's fun for bench racing but, a little rough on the wallet.

The best thing you can do is sit back and be realistic with yourself and ask yourself what are you really going to do with the car. See if you personally think you need that much motor. When I say "that much motor" I am taking $$$ not HP I have built engines for half that with just as much if not more HP and they lived a long hard life.

Is that quote fair? YES
Is it a quality build? YES
Is that what you really need? only you know the answer to that

EDIT: I would also spring for a better timing cover if you are going to run a roller cam. I would go for an aluminum cover (stiffer). In most cases with stamped steel covers you have to weld a plate inside so they don't flex. This may not apply to you because you mentioned running a LT-1 block, I am not sure about the timing covers for them (the new Lt-1's).

Royce

Last edited by camaroman7d; 12-14-2004 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 12-14-2004, 10:37 AM
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That is a fair price, but its also farming out 100% of the work to somebody else, so you're really paying the price for that. Can you do some of this work yourself? Do you really need the dart block?

This is an excellent post. Keep in mind the AFR heads are already paid for, as is the carb and the intake. With those added this would be an 8500 dollar build. This post is a great example of what current parts and labor cost. It will be a great thread to reference to stave off the next jegs dreamer who is wasting our time.

That said, I think you have a good build. What are your expectations and what are you going to do with this motor? Maybe we can save you some money by knowing more about your intentions. Maybe you don't need all the high-dollar parts-

K
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Old 12-14-2004, 10:47 AM
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DAMN, I'm not even able to think of spending THAT kind of money on a warmed over small block! Short block at that! I'd be looking for a good core block, and something other than a hydraulic roller cam. And why the machine work on a 1650 dollar block? For a street cruiser or even a weekend warrior, I'd be pricing other crank/piston combos.

tom
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Old 12-14-2004, 10:47 AM
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Camaroman and killer - thanks for the good advice - very logical.

I do not think I will go with a dart block so right there I will save around $1,200. As far as the rest of the build I may go with a solid cam - this will save me some coin as well. The crank - well a complete kit from scat will be around 1900, callies is 2200 - I think that is money well spent no?

My car is a numbers car - want to pull the motor to preserve the originality & also want a little more kick. The car is show quality. I will not run her on the track but I may take it there to see what it will do. I drive it as much as I can - sunny days only - but I drive it like a muscle car is ment to be driven. My logic with this build is this. Since I am going to do a rebuild I may as well do it right and build up a 383 with 450 or so horse. I could opt to rebuild a 350 around 375 or so horse but why - if I am doing this anyway I may as well build it up right. The other thing is I do not want to have to weld in subframe connectors. At what horse power would it be necessary considering that I do not drag race?
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Old 12-14-2004, 11:19 AM
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First off, Very nice looking car.

My honest opinion on the frame connectors is this, they should have come stock on all the Camaros/Firebirds (even 6 cylinders). Have you ever jacked up the front of your car and put jack stands under it? When you let the jack down did you notice how much the body/sub frame sags? (keeps going down after the frame has hit the jack stands). There are bolt in frame connectors that require no welding. While the weld in ones are better, the bolt in ones are WAY better than nothing. This is a modification you can feel while driving as well. You car will handle much better.

I understand your concern about cutting on your car and I wouldn't want to either but, look into the bolt on connectors.

Well when you first asked advice about the engine build I suggested skipping the roller cam and the new block. The Callies crank kit is not bad price wise and hard to beat quality wise. I also (as Tom) wonder why would you have to do a bunch of machine work on a new $1,600 block? The only thing I would expect to do is hone it and assemble (of course clean it too).

For your power level the new Dart block is WAY overkill. For an example I have a factory block and have about 700HP it has held up so far (about a year) and I hammer on it pretty good (I would not recommend that and if/when I do it again I will get an appropriate block). I think a factory block is fine up to about 550HP after that maybe start looking into something else.

Swicthing to a solid flat cam would be smart performance wise and money wise.

Here is an example of what you can get for $599, 4-bolt GM block bored, honed, deck squared, line honed, oven baked, shot blasted and magnafuled (this is a 350 block). It is advertised in the Goodguys Gazette. Assuming the above work is done right, all you need is assembly. this is MORE than enough block for your goals. You might also consider looking into a new bow-tie block from GM.

Don't get me wrong I am not talking you out of, or into anything. I'm just trying to show you the options. I hate to see guys spend more than they need to.

Royce
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Old 12-14-2004, 12:41 PM
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Dart little M's some only rough cut. You still have to bush the lifters clearance check, and final hone for piston size. 1600 ain't cheap, but there not meant to go into daily drivers.

TC, save a ton of money with a scat forged non- twist crank, eagle H-beam rods, KB pistons and a well used stock block. IMO your putting wayyyyyy to much money into it for what you need to get out of it. Durability isn't paying off either for what you intention is. With the AFR's your are going to make the same power with the same durability at half the cost.

Ditch the ATI damper as well for a new stock piece.
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Old 12-14-2004, 01:15 PM
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What would a stock damper cost? What are the name brands that I should look for?

I just got off the phone with him - he keeps leaning towards a solid cam set up - I asked him why and he said A) it is about half the price of a roller set up. B) you will gain more power and torque C) they do not require as much maintenance as most peopl think.

Now I am tooling around the idea of going with a solid profile. My question for you guys is what are thr pro's & cons of a solid cam.

I think I will go with a used block or maybe a new GM bowtie, 4bolt main which I can get for $705. The only thin the guy could'nt tell me is whether ir not the gm block was a let sided dipstick. The model of the block is 10066034.

Sooooo. at this point my changes on this build are:
1 - go with a used block - save $1,100
2- go with a stock style damper - save $100??
3- Go with a solid cam - save $300

so now my build is approx $4846.
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Old 12-14-2004, 01:28 PM
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it sounds good to me i think youll like a solid flat lifter, but i think there are long blocks for sale from the crate engine co.s for less, like American Speed Engineering and several others that advertise in Popular Hot Rodding. ps. very beautiful 69
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Old 12-14-2004, 01:31 PM
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I don't think you need all that rotating assm. Either. With 450 horse you could use any cast crank, even a 400 GM crank and you'd be fine. What's the point of putting a crank in a motor that can handle 700 horse when you block can only handle about 550 and your build is only about 450?

K
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Old 12-14-2004, 04:20 PM
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You should be able to get the Bow-tie block with the dipstick on either side.

There really are no cons with going with a solid flat tappet cam. You just need to use good rockers and locking nuts. In the old days you used to have to adjust them a little more often. With the newer rockers, studs and nuts they will hld the adjustment fine. I check mine every other oil change or so, I have yet to have a problem. I steered away from them for years because of the "maintenance" I can tell you it's not really an issue. In reality how many mile do you put on thet car in a year? I am willing to bet you won't even have to tinker with them during your driving season.

EDIT: I take that back the ONLY con with going with a solid flat cam is the break in. You will have to do it properly and adjust the lash after it's done. With a hyd. roller you set it and forget it. Is that worth $500 to you?

The advantages are they rev faster and higher, they can have more aggressive ramps (compared to a flat hyd cam). Of course cost is a major advantage. The lifters are lighter which is why they rev faster and higher.

I am not a big fan of hyd roller cams for performance use. They are great for cruisers and people that don't want to do ANY maintenance at all. In most cases they are all rev'd out by 6300 or lower. I know people will say if they weren't any good why do all new cars come with them. Now ask yourself how many new cars rev to 6800 (American V8 cars). They come with them for reasons other than performance, mileage is one. Building a 450HP engine is not usually done with mileage as a concern.

The guys here are giving you VERY good input. Me and your machinist see pretty much eye to eye on the advice (except the parts he is using).

You could easily get by with a cast crank if you want, or you could step up to a nodular iron crank (still cast just a little stronger). Either should be fine for what you are doing. I don't have a problem with you spending the extra coin on the rotating assembly, that is money well spent. So if you want the Callies stuff go for it. That way if you catch the HP bug and decide to punish it or add nitrous you don't have to worry about the lower end. Cranks are not easy to break.

Now with the guys on this board that usually can't agree to anything. Everyone is pretty much telling you the same thing here. Of course on some things you will have to do what you like best even if others don't agree. It is your car when all is said and done. Your car, your money and you have to live with the choice you make. If "YOU" really want a hyd. roller then buy one, that way you won't look back and say I "should have". If "YOU" want that Dart block then buy it. If "YOU" want to know what is REALLY needed then just read hrough these posts.

Royce
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Old 12-14-2004, 04:31 PM
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I talked to a company called revolutionary performance about building a Ford motor for a friend of mine. They gave me an estimate of $7500 for a motor intake to pan sfi balancer to flexplate with all 4340 eagle forged internals and je pistons. That price included a set of 205cc AFR CNC ported Ford heads and a mech roller cam. Like has been said before, your parts are probably over kill.

Here is the website

www.revolutionaryperformance.com

I would consider something like this for your build

SBC 383 4 bolt main block with ARP main studs, Eagle 4340 steel 3.75" crank, Eagle ESP 6" rods, SRP 7cc dome pistons, 1/16-1/16-3/16 file fit rings, flat tappet cam, double roller timing set, internally balanced, SFI Fluidamper balancer and SFI flywheel

This assembeled short block is $2999

Adam
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Old 12-14-2004, 04:43 PM
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thanks... You guys are really helping me sort things out.

I will keep you posted on my process.

I may go with a solid cam. Sounds like they have many benefits.
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Old 12-14-2004, 10:18 PM
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I am just going to ditto everyone on the overbuilding. You are looking at parts that will handle 1000HP and you are looking to make half that. I would look at a good set of rods and light pistons and then go with a scat cast crank. That will handle 500 plus HP forever. Unless you have plans to make REAL BIG HP, save your money.

Chris
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