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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2004, 08:40 AM
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I have seen 600 hp in motors similar to what you are building, but they were all 406's with AFR comp package 220 heads running to around 6500-7000. (the motors I saw had 10.5:1 compression), so It is possible, but you may need a few more cubic inches, and a port and polish job on your heads.

Adam

Check out this site, they offer a "brutus 550 406" with 600 hp

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...R+heads+&hl=en

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Last edited by firestone; 05-05-2004 at 08:51 AM.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2004, 09:36 AM
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firestone, I think you are missing a little on that Brutus 406, it says "up to 600HP" Usually when they say things like that, it means if you run race fuel and up the compression and cam.

This is why I asked if he planned on running pump gas, getting to 600HP on race fuel is not really a big challenge. Now getting to 600HP on pump gas N/A with 400 or less cubic inches will be a challenge.

Royce
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2004, 11:19 AM
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hmmm...

I like a challenge, are you challenging me? (LOL) you know with a little support and a few nudges Ill try it, even with true flat top pistons, what the heck, I aint Skered! lol... I really think all jokes aside I can do it, I will need to port these heads, it might make an interesting thread to see what I had to do to get it up to the 600hp mark on pump gas, and that is real world hp no desktop dyno bull...

so make a challenge but be warned, I may just do it..and if I do it,....... it will be with a cam than less .700 lift...thats a promise..

I may have to ask for help though, if you know anyone that has the expertise to lend some advice on the way hey! new ideas are welcome, bigblock@ntelos.net


2wld4u
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Old 05-05-2004, 11:51 AM
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Royce was right that the article I showed you before was not a good example. I found another one that is a little better, It is a 401 with AFR 195cc comp package heads, 10:1 compression and a , 236 242 @.050 hyd roller cam. This motor made 554 hp at 5900 RPM on pump gas. If you could get you heads to flow like the AFR's, with your motor having larger heads, more compression, and a bigger mechanical roller cam, 600 may not be too far out of the picture.

Adam


look at this article:

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/55978/index.html
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2004, 12:59 PM
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with a dual plane intake thats not too shaby at all.....and you can bet that dual plane is restricting the heads...I plan on a fully ported Victor jr matched to the heads, and I have considered making custom 1 7/8 longtubes for the S-10 body, I may contact Kooks Headers to see if they can help me out here...

Buddy Rawls with the proper info no doubt in my mind can come up with a grind to meet or exceed my goal, whether or not ill need more CR is up in the air right now and I do plan on shaving the heads to a 58-60cc to insure Ill end up with at least 11.0:1

so whats 11.0-.5:1 worth? who know's but if I come withing 10hp of the 600hp mark id say its worth alot!

now the fun part...I need to have these heads flow'ed to see what the actual flow is, and if they arent close to the advertised flow#'s will largely determine how much port work will be needed.

.I cant seem to find anyone who has flow'ed the PTL 220CC alum heads on a independant bench and give a honest answer to the actual flow#'s..



to be continued....2wld4u
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Old 05-05-2004, 01:28 PM
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Fellas, I am telling ya, from customers all over the country, no 10 to 1 383 engine is going to make that kind of power without some serious $ behind it. With bolt together parts and 23 degree heads, 500 is not a problem. . .big difference to make that 600 number. . . I'm telling yeah. . . and with some of the correction factors that I have seen on "published" dyno pulls, the corrected power has been "corrected all right".

I am not saying don't try. . . by all means this is a hot rod board. . .go for it. . .but just don't waste your hard earn money unless you have a Ben Franklin tree in the back yard.

Chris
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2004, 01:42 PM
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Ditto on Cstraub. The only pump gas small blocks making that kind of power are 427-454 and they are much more expensive to build.

Chris
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Old 05-05-2004, 01:43 PM
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I know what your saying Chris, and your right, I certainly dont have a money tree in the back yard, money is tight...nevertheless Im going ahead with my plan....any donations are welcome...lol......LOL.....buhahahahahaha! like that will ever happen...anyways I did get a good chuckle from that thought...lol...2wld4u




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Old 05-05-2004, 06:31 PM
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Listen I am challenging you, lets make it official

Unless you have some sort of secret, it just is not going to happen on pump gas and 23* heads. I have a ~500HP 385 N/A 385ci engine on the stand that I just pulled out of my car. I think that was about as much HP as I could safely (reliably) get out of that engine on pump gas. Compression was right at 11:1 with aluminum heads and a healthy cam, ported Dart Pro 1's 215cc runners, port matched Vic Jr, 830 CFM Holley, etc.... Even with a solid roller it is not going to happen. I built a similar engine with a solid roller it actually didn't go any faster/quicker in the exact same car.

Let me try to explain why I don't think you can do it. In order to get anywhere close to 600HP from 383ci, you are going to need a massive cam, in order for that cam to make power it is going to need big compression, big compression is not going to run on pump gas. It is a evil circle, the odds are more than against you. You can put me on record here You will not make 600HP from 383 N/A with 23* heads, on pump gas period.

As Cstraub said those magazine dyno numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Search the web and see if anyone is offering a N/A 383 that makes 600HP on pump gas.

I think 500-525HP is about the limit.

Prove me wrong and you will become a millionaire.

Royce
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Old 05-05-2004, 07:25 PM
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millionaire? heck yeah! I'll go for it!

as soon as all the parts arrive Ill be ready to start assembly!

but I beg you fellow's if I fall short please no told you so's this is a severe learning curve for me...I have always had great results with nitrous applications and to be honest building N/a is a completly different animal....

600hp on pump gas.......
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2004, 01:23 AM
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turbo..... just add a turbo the size of a 3 gallon bucket and turn up the boost, but wait..... dont we know somone who runs what appears to be the mother of all turbos on a 406 SBC?? (turboS10) if somone would only send him a drum of 116 octane and the guts to pull the hose off the wastegate and hold on for dear life that motor should put out somthing in the 1400 Hp range at 35 PSI...



there is no beating a well engineered turbo combo... period.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2004, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by deuce_454
turbo..... just add a turbo the size of a 3 gallon bucket and turn up the boost, but wait..... dont we know somone who runs what appears to be the mother of all turbos on a 406 SBC?? (turboS10) if somone would only send him a drum of 116 octane and the guts to pull the hose off the wastegate and hold on for dear life that motor should put out somthing in the 1400 Hp range at 35 PSI...



there is no beating a well engineered turbo combo... period.
HEHE....holding on for dear life is right. I got her up to 5500 and 15psi last night and that was pretty stout until the transmission let go. 1/2 throttle launches on the street are already sideways with the nose high enough I cant see the payment for 100 ft. I think when it hooks I am gonna needs some wheelie bars. With 35PSI I would need an new chassis

Chris
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2004, 06:59 AM
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well, Buddy even told me it cant be done so......I may just give up on the idea, and rely on a power adder................. no ofense to those power adder user's (Im one also) but I really had my heart set on a nasty N/a build this time...I wont give up on the idea but when some many experts tell me it cant be done it, I suppose I'll have to agree and work on this on my own time...lol 2wld4u
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2004, 07:14 AM
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I'm glad you listened to Buddy.. . he is a sharp guy. . .NO BS. ..I was confident he would not tell you any different then I. Good luck with the build, whatever you end up with you'll be happy I am sure.

Chris
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2004, 07:50 AM
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You also have to remember that a 525HP engine is nothing to laugh at. That is pretty serious power for a street car. If you want 600+ lower the CR and use a power adder of your choice. It will also be so much more reliable with a blower or turbo than the nasty NA engine would be.

Chris
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