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Old 08-15-2005, 11:38 PM
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relay to start chevelle

I am only getting 6 volts to my starter when I turn my ignition key on and it isn't enough to trip the solinoid. So I would like to install a relay to take 12 volts direct from the battery when I go to start the car. This 30 amp relay has 4 posts numbered 30 87 85 and 86. Could someone tell me which wires go to which numbered posts?

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Old 08-16-2005, 01:08 AM
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Relay

Doc here,

Were it I, I would find out why you are only getting 6 volts to the "S" terminal from the "Start" position on the Key and repair it..Cuz ... it ain't going to get any better on it's own..(the rest of the ignition switch that is..) and may spread (like maybe grease or burned contacts) To things like the HEI, and switched side of the fuse buss...

However, To hook up the relay properly, you need relay coil ground, relay coil activate (the wire going to a switch with 12 volts switched ignition, on it to activate start function) Then your Normally open relay Contact to a linked or fused wire from the battery or Battery source, and the normally closed relay contact to the "S" terminal on the solenoid...

How the numbers shake down on your relay, I have forgotten, been years since I've used anything less than a commercial grade PB TSO'd type Relay, but If I were threatened to guess..85 & 86 Coil power and ground..(you can verify with an ohm meter about 10 ohms across it.) Then 30 & 87 normally open and center wiper..you can verify by ohm meter infinite no coil...000 with coil activated.

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Old 08-16-2005, 06:02 AM
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If I remember correctly, GM solenoids need approx. 30 amps to pull in. All of that goes through the starter switch. The contacts eventually get pitted and your 6 v. is probably the result. So you will need to swap out the ignition switch.

Then go buy a Ford solenoid. Mount it on the firewall or inner fender. Take all of the batt terminal wires off the GM solenoid and put them on the batt terminal of the Ford Solenoid. Move the S wire and the I wire (if it has one) to the Ford. Run a short cable from the other large terminal of the Ford solenoid to the batt terminal of the GM solenoid. Make a jumper wire to go from the batt terminal of the GM solenoid to the S terminal. (Some early 70's Fords used Delco starters with this set up. Ford actually has (had) a stamped and punched metal strap that attached to the Delco solenoid. I think I still have one in the package. I will try and find it and get the part number.)

Advantages. 1. The Ford solenoid draws far less amperage than the GM. So your starter contacts in your ignition switch will last longer. 2. The batter cable to the starter is now "dead" except when starting. You can pull the starter without disconnecting the battery. You have less worries about headers melting the insulation of and arc cutting holes in the tubes.
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Old 08-16-2005, 06:45 AM
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Starting issue

That will work but I think you are just prolonging the need to fix. If you are only getting 6 volts instead of 12 the voltage drop is causing heat somewhere. You need to find out why and fix the problem. Eventually you will burn something up. Have you pulled the s wire off and checked to see if the voltage drop is still there even without a load. It is a fairly basic problem. You either have a bad ignition switch or a fault in the wiring between the switch and the starter. You obviously have a meter of some sort. Find the start wire on the switch and start checking voltage there. If it is good there then move on the the next junction point. The neutral safety switch if you have one or the connectors on it. If its a standard it could be the clutch switch. Check at the firewall bulk head connector. From there it should be a straight shot to the starter. When you are checking the voltage at the s term what are you using for a ground reference. Check it to the battery neg terminal. You could have a ground issue. You cant fix the problem until you find it !!!

The Ford relay system has a lot of good features and it still may be a good idea AFTER you find the issue. It will still be using all the components that are causing the problem now.
It would be a shame to burn up your car due to a bad connection or a worn ignition switch.
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Old 08-16-2005, 07:45 AM
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SBC4ME

These guys are all right. Your problem should be an easy fix and based on what you are saying, you probably will have other issues if not now, soon.

I would take a voltmeter and check that voltage again. Try moving the ground lead directly to the (-) on the battery to see if things happen to change.

If not, measure the voltage at the ignition switch (the main battery feed side ) during cranking. It should drop a small amount when you engage the started but not to 6 volts.

Then move to the side of the switch that goes to the starter. Check the voltage again and see if it drops. If the voltage on the starter side of switch is less than the main battery feed, you have a bad connection or bad switch.

If its still OK then move down the line towards the starter. Neutral saftey switch, clutch switch (depending on vehicle), ect.

In summary (very summarized) this circuit starts at the battery, goes to ignition switch to above mentioned neutral/clutch switches to solenoid. If you have 12 volts at the battery keep moving through the circuit until your voltage drops. Once you get a voltage drop you are PAST the problem. Start looking for bad components, connections or wiring.

Rich
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Old 08-16-2005, 11:50 AM
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I guess I wasn't completely clear. 99% of the time, low voltage in a GM start wire is due to excess resistance in the switch due to the pitting because of the amp draw. I assumed you will have to replace the switch. To be 100% correct, you should do a complete diagnostic and verify there are no other problems.
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Old 08-16-2005, 12:00 PM
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redsdad,

I have never really thought about the circuit in the manner you suggested.

There are lots of links around the web about installing a ford solenoid to give more current to a GM solenoid (hot header issues).

Your method seems to make more sense to me. Why just use the newly added solenoid to give more power to the solenoid when you can do the whole thing.

I like it.

Rich
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Old 08-16-2005, 06:19 PM
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Thanks Rich. Wish I could take credit for it, but as I said, Ford used it on their cars. How does that go? Good artists create, great artists steal? LOL
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Old 08-16-2005, 06:55 PM
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Sbc4me,

No matter what you do, the wire from the key to the "s" terminal must be repaired. Because this wire will be used to activate the solenoid you have or the Ford solenoid, when you turn the key to "start". If you let leave it with 6 volts neither soleniod will work.

Get the new switch and I think your problem will be solved.

Scholman
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Old 08-16-2005, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redsdad
Thanks Rich. Wish I could take credit for it, but as I said, Ford used it on their cars. How does that go? Good artists create, great artists steal? LOL
Well its not exactly the same. It never dawned on me to wire the S to the main battery cable and fire them at once with the Ford.

Doh !

Easier to bump start a car too. Like to have a dollar for every time I sparked the headers when I was young with a screwdriver doing that. Actually could do it in the dark !

Rich
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Old 09-04-2005, 06:20 PM
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One of the great things about being a pack-rat is that you can always dig out something unique. I was looking for a paint brush and found one of the original Ford parts I bought ages ago. Part # C8VY-11072-A. If memory serves, that means Ford first used it in 1968.

Anyway, put the battery in the trunk. Mount the Ford solenoid in the trunk. Run the starter wire from the ignition switch to the solenoid in the trunk. Run the starter cable to the starter and install one of these across the Delco solenoid. Now your large cable from the trunk to the engine is "cold" except when starting the car. Use a fuse link at the solenoid and run the supply wire from the solenoid to the fuse block. I think I would still run the ignition wire (if you need one) from the Delco solenoid.

Not sure if this part is still available from Ford or not.
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Old 09-04-2005, 08:37 PM
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Solenoid

Doc here,

A good system for a rod with no room in the front for a battery...

I think in this case it would exacerbate the problem as he is suffering load loss and current drop with an already short wired system..

BTW,how do you Energize the Delco solenoid? or did I miss that part?

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Old 09-04-2005, 10:33 PM
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The Ford piece shown in the jpg connects what was the battery terminal on the Delco solenoid directly to the "S" terminal.

To sum up the advantages of this system:

Lower amperage through the starter switch because the Ford solenoid draws less (probably what is "wrong" with the car now is a fried contact in the starter switch because of the high amperage draw - if so, the switch will have to be replaced. Replacing it or whatever has succumbed to the high amperage draw of the Delco solenoid will cure the symptom, not the problem.)

Large cable snaking through the frame and headers is now "hot" only when starting.

Your S terminal is now supplied by a wire the size of a battery cable.

Easier "bumping the engine over" to set valves etc. by jumping the Ford solenoid.

I learned about this when I worked at a Ford dealership. I was stunned when I pulled a starter out of a car and saw that it was a Delco. The old timer who was my mentor said that Ford went with this system because the Delco starter had enough torque for the application and the Ford starter didn't. But Ford would not run the Delco solenoid amperage through their starter switch.

BTW, you can do this with a front mounted battery as well. I was just thinking about my plans for my rod.
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Old 09-06-2005, 09:43 PM
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good info

hey, thank you all for the great posts and information. For the time being I have installed a 30 amp relay that sends a full 12 plus amps to my solinoid direct from the battery, but I am really impressed with your idea of going to a ford solinoid and will likely be doing that soon. I beleive you are right on when you stated that the start switch has been getting too much amps and has fried the contacts. Again, THANKS for the info! This forum is a great source for information and advice.
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