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Old 07-13-2013, 04:26 PM
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Remote Starter Confusion

When wiring a remote starter solenoid, I find the following three methods.
A


B


C


I suspect that all three metods work (the care will start), but which one is best?

Or is the correct choice D: It depends.

The car I'm working on ('54 Desoto Firedome) was wired like A, but had a seperate wire to S that paralled the heavy cable. I replaced it with a jumper as in A, but the starter is not working (it's been re-build, all new BAT cables, etc.) Can that really make a difference?

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Old 07-13-2013, 05:43 PM
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I shouldnt make a difference.
It should work fine.
Did you bench test the starter.
Have you checked the grounds.
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Old 07-13-2013, 09:04 PM
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Whether you use a 2nd wire in parallel or use the jumper, the basic diagram A should work.

Is the ignition switch or remote starter button connected so that you can actuate it with 12 volts on the S terminal on the remote solenoid? If all the other wires are connected as in diagram A, 12 volts on the solenoid S terminal should make the starter turn over.

Bruce
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Old 07-13-2013, 09:16 PM
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Right now it just makes it grind. The starter was re-built at a pro shop and tested this AM (it had an intermittant short inside it) and I replaced the Ford-style remote relay as insurance. I need to measure voltage drop to the starter again now that it's all together. The battery is grounded to a bolt on the generator, which shoudl be OK for the starter. I don't see a strap from the engine block to the frame or to the body. I can add those and check everything on Monday.

It's a 6V positive ground system if that matters. Would that make a difference for the relay or is there a 6V version of that?
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Old 07-14-2013, 07:16 AM
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6 volt POSITIVE ground? are you SURE? That would be strange. I see . You have the Firedome.
And no a 12 volt solenoid would not work.
Test the solenoid you had, if it works...run it . Use diagram "A".
A 6 volt solenoid is probably available, but I have never looked for one or seen one.
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Old 07-14-2013, 10:12 AM
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6V positive ground is OEM for a 1954 Desoto.

I hate it too.
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Old 07-14-2013, 10:24 AM
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NAPA may be able to get you a 6v solenoid, but the last one I got was from yesterdaystractors.com. It was for an 8N Ford P/N 8N11450.
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Old 07-14-2013, 11:45 AM
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solenoid

If you are not using positive ground the starter will run backwards. The starter may engage the flywheel but the overrunning clutch will not allow it turn over the engine.

Also, the starter (Auto-Light) has a relay/solenoid mounted on the starter. The relay is controlled by the start button.
When the relay contacts close they engage the solenoid that engages the pinion gear to the flywheel and also makes the electrical connection to the starter motor.
No extra solenoid is required unless the starter relay is not working.
Three more things:
Positive ground must be observed.
6 volt systems draw double the current of 12 volt. Everything is larger because of the higher current requirements.
An auxiliary solenoid like a Ford starter solenoid may work on positive ground. Test it first.

vicrod
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Old 07-15-2013, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hduff View Post
When wiring a remote starter solenoid, I find the following three methods.

...

Or is the correct choice D: It depends.

The car I'm working on ('54 Desoto Firedome) was wired like A, but had a seperate wire to S that paralled the heavy cable. I replaced it with a jumper as in A, but the starter is not working (it's been re-build, all new BAT cables, etc.) Can that really make a difference?
If you're trying to wire it as it was when it was new, the answer is "D", but "B" is would work, and so would "C". If the remote relay you are speaking of is the stock starter relay, then "A" is the only really wrong answer. The stock start relay is not designed to carry the high amperage that diagram "A" would send through it.

The starter relay may look like a remote solenoid, but it works differently. It controls the power to the "S" terminal on the starter, not the main power to the "B" terminal.

In your car, the purpose of the starter relay is to enable the starter function only if two conditions are met:
A. The transmission is in neutral (neutral safety switch contacts closed)
B. The engine is not already running.

(to avoid brain explosion, skip the next paragraph)

To accomplish condition B, the starter relay control coil grounds through the generator armature via it's connection to "A" terminal on the voltage regulator. When the generator is not putting out, there is low enough resistance through the armature windings to ground to enable the start relay. If the engine was already running, there would be power there instead of ground, which would inhibit the function of the start relay.

Confused yet?

To replace the stock start relay with a modern replacement and still maintain all the functionality of the original system, wire it exactly as shown in diagram "C" except connect relay pin 85 to the voltage regulator terminal "a" instead of ground.

Here is a simplified version of the original wiring diagram showing only the wiring related to the start circuit:



Hope this helps...
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Old 07-15-2013, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe G View Post
Hope this helps...
Actually, it does help a lot. It's a very clear explanation of how things work.

After 60 years, the cloth covering the wires has aged and absorbed oil and dirt and is black, so it's been difficult to sort one from the other. The rubber insulation has become brittle and cracked. Also, countless mechanics have worked on the car and made minor changes.

I have removed the wrapping on the wire bundles to identify each wire and have soldered and insulated with shrink tubing a splice on the ends where the rubber has deteriorated. The wires at the voltage regulator were all bare for their last few inches. I've matched the gauge and matched the color as best I could. At least now I have safer, more reliable wiring.

Your explanation as to how the circuit is supposed to perform is clear and will go a long way to helping me finish what I had hoped would be a quick fix for a friend but has turned into an example of "no good deed goes unpunished.

At least I get to drive the car for while when I'm finished. That will be a treat, until I have to do more work on it.

I have unexpected errands to run today, so no work on the car until tomorrow.
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Old 07-15-2013, 03:53 PM
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Joe G. After looking at that diagram you posted for a few minutes, I realize, some guy put a lot of though into the setup and I can see how it would work nicely as a starter inhibit circuit with the engine running.
Once the generator is spinning fast enough to generate current , it is no longer a ground path for the coil on the start relay, therefore keeping the relay from energizing even if power is supplied on the "s" terminal. Pretty sharp thinking for back in the day.
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Old 07-20-2013, 03:14 PM
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Success!

The starter now performs better than ever.

After replacing or repairing all the old, rotten wiring, I measure very little voltage drop in the system and the starter cranks strong.

New Problem: No fuel pressure. When testing the engine-mounted mechanical fuel pump it appears the diaphragm has failed. So that's next on the list and easy to do.

Thanks, guys, for all the advice.
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