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replacing a roof skin on a 69 dodge dart

19K views 49 replies 7 participants last post by  glhx 
#1 ·
I have a 69 dodge dart ( removed vinyl top) with a rusty roof. Upon reading threads on this site ive come to the conclusion that it would be best to replace the roof skin. The first item i can think of is locating one that has no or very little rust. Ive never replaced a roof skin before and find it intimidating and challenging at the same time. I would like to try it and have confidence i can do it with my knowledge. I know that the front and rear window needs to come out and i know the spot welds need to be drilled out as well, I know what a pillars and b pillars are and that the skin sits on a frame. The frame is ok but has surface rust on it due to the pin holes in the roof skin.This is the extent of what i know about this job.

Does the body or sub frame need to be reinforced (where and how for replacing the skin)
Will the later year dart such as the 70 through 72 fit on my car
Where are the spot welds going to be on a 69 dodge dart
How do i get the chrome trim for the vinyl top off
Where do i cut into this sheetmetal
and all the other things i didnt ask that you know about this job in general.
I have a mig welder with gas
sawzall
cutting torch
grinder
air compressor
lots of room in my shop
cordless and cord drills
sand paper
hammer and dolly (Cheap one)
I have little experience with body panels and want to try it

any links to sites or pictures would help.
 
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#2 ·
I wouldn't worry about bracing the body.

I would think there is a leaded seam on the sail panel (rear roof pillar) where the roof skin stops and the rear quarter panel joins. Lead should be easy to spot. Our 69 dart conv has bubbles in EVERY factory leaded seam.

I don't use spotweld cutters. I use a reground drill bit that is nearly flat. Then I try not to go through the 2nd panel. I use a thin putty knife to finish snapping the welds IF you can get the knife into the seam somehow. The w/shield and back glass seams should be easy. The roof gutters may be a challenge as I don't recall which edge was spotwelded. Just dig around and clean with a wire wheel to see them. Hopefully it is not folded over itself in a 3 layer deal.

The gutter chrome should be like mid 70s that I have worked on when they were new. It was a C profile that snapped over the pinchwelded gutter. They come off easy with a wide flatnose tool (and tap the tool with a hammer). You will be trying to gently roll the gutter chrome up, a little at a time. I'd do it from the underside if possible. You are trying to contact at the lip, but a narrow tool will kink that edge. Going back on is not easy, esp if you change the shape of the gutter lip during re-roof. I have no clue what sort of install tool was used by the factory, but I know a rubber hammer will ruin them on the first few taps!

An old parts manual would give the years, and if it was illustrated, you would see how it went together.
 
#4 ·
ScoTFrenzel said:
You will be suprised how flexible that unibody car is without a roof skin.
I suggest you brace it WELL.

Itsa whole lot easier to brace it first, than to try to jack it straight and get the chassis square while you try to weld in the top.

Not to pick a fight, but exactly where are you attaching these braces? I have no clue what you are suggesting, and if you take the doors off to brace the body...that is just wrong.
 
#5 · (Edited)
i would like to know for sure about the bracing. In another post they did not brace the car and it was fine due to the structural support under the roof skin but i dont know for sure because ive never done this before. Like he said, where do you brace this? :confused: The interior is out so i can do whatever is needed
In looking at the area of the drip rails i cannot see where a spot weld would be. Is it over the drip rails or under the drip rails. The drip rails go from the front of the roof to the back. i see the pieces that hold the seals for the top of the side windows. Is it under them and how do u get them out. I can see the area where the quarter meets the sail panel and the other one close to the top of the a pillar. I will get a manual to get a guide for assembly. ?What is a 3 layer setup
how are you flattening these drill bits the drill the spots? What exact shape does this look like and can u get a picture.
I am really grateful for all the help. Ive had this car a long time and it deserves a new roof. The we will get to how to put this thing back on, one thing at a time though. On another note , which would be easier. reskin or put on a new roof alltogether
 
#6 ·
I have to totally disagree with the bracing of the body. I have done MANY roof skins. From Chevelles to Toyotas, the skin is doing next to nothing, it is a "paint holder" and not much more.

Cut off the entire roof, that is a whole different story. But just the skin, no bracing is needed.

Remove the front and back glass, and the drip rail mouldings. Burn the lead out of the roof to quarter seam. At that point clean up the lap and pinch welds around the top of seam sealer and paint. Then start drilling out the top layer of the spot welds that hold the skin on.

Find a nice top, do the same thing and then plug weld the skin onto your body. There are some details about cleaning up the drilled welds and applying epoxy primer and stuff like that but that is all there is to in a nut shell.

As far as the drill bits, go to "autobodystore.com" and get some "Wivco" spot weld drilling bits and do it like a pro!

Brian
 
#7 · (Edited)
where are the spot welds near the drip rails? Above them or below them? inside them?

Will burning out the lead warp any panels? i have a propane torch, map and oxyacetylene.

Can i grind the top layer of the spot welds off so the botton panel will be solid metal with no holes?

Does anyone know if the 70-72 or 73 dart roof was the same as the 67-69, sure looks the same?

Im going to take the new panel out of a dart roof with a good panel. I think the pinch welds are located at the top of the windshield running down the drip rails (inside the drip rail crevice underneath the sealer, down to where the sail panel meets the quarter panel, across the sail panel at the bottom, the to the bottom of the back window about 3 inches in and then up the sides of the back window and all the way across the top of the back window?

Is this the location of all the spot welds. The pinch welds and will be drilled as you said. Every article ive seen on this show no bracing but says to put the car on jack stands. I will buy those drill bits. Thanks for the all the advice
 
#8 ·
You know where the spot welds are, where you find them! I have never done the roof on the exact car you are working on so I personally don't know where every weld is. But they should be at the bottom of the gutters, and in each front and rear pinch weld where the glass sets. On the lead, yep, it will melt out pretty easy an ox/acy torch with a small tip will make short order of melting it out. Just do a little at a time, and where a resperator and have a fan going blowing the fumes away.

Yes, you can grind off the top layer of a spot weld. There are a number of methods to remove spot welds, personally I drill them 99% of the time, it is just SOOOOOOOO much cleaner. And besides, you will have to drill them out on your new skin so you might as well get good at it on the old one! :D

Clean out all the seam sealer in the gutters and look for those welds.

Brian
 
#9 ·
I think the drip rail seam might be the worst part of the job. I just can't recall what I saw back in 74 & 75 at the dealer when we messed with those stainless trim pieces. We had to replace a few due to dents on BRAND NEW cars because Chrysler corp was in chaos with labor contract problems & workers were putting out shoddy work. I do sort of recall that the cars that were dented, had inconsistent shapes of the welded drip channel under that trim. That's why I suspect it is NOT a simple row of easy spot welds. It could be that the roof skin was crimped totally around the inner structural pieces of the roof. If it were me, I'd strip the paint & any sealer and try to figure out what type of seam it is. Maybe put up some good close-up pics of what you see, for the "real" body shop workers on this site (which I am not).


I use a drill bit that I resharpen to a much flatter angle. Yes, it takes practice to keep the bit from walking, but I have drilled thousands that way. You need to determine where the true center of each weld...sometimes they are "smeared" when the worker was still moving the welder when he hit the juice ;) If you get the hang of it, there is almost no regrinding of the base metal after you get the old skin off. I use a plasma to trim away as much of the old roof before drilling. That way, you now have access to be able to use a steel handle thin putty knife under that remaining strip of welds.


On the donor junk car, just drill completely through, and with a slighty larger bit this time, to make sure you get all of each weld. You don't want to pry & chisel the donor skin...it's very thin.
 
#10 ·
Pulling out old lead; use a propane torch and start at the bottom. A few quick passes with a hand wire brush will help. It will soften and drip off as you go. It will be thick in some places if it is anything like our 69 dart conv. You will most likely find some rust at the actual welded joint. I would never re-lead, you will never get it clean enough IMO.
 
#11 ·
Good stuff F&J, I like your description on the "smeared" welds. :) Boy some of those hold "man done" welds are horrible! I have to say working on late model cars is soooooooo much easier!

Brian
 
#12 ·
ScoTFrenzel said:
You will be suprised how flexible that unibody car is without a roof skin.
I suggest you brace it WELL.

Itsa whole lot easier to brace it first, than to try to jack it straight and get the chassis square while you try to weld in the top.
Have you ever lifted a 69 Dart on a spider lift, or jacked it up on the rocker panel by one wheel? The car is flexible. It will twist 1/2 inch like nothin. I have even seen some with cracks near the C pillar.

As another illustration. Have you ever seen anyone that welded in sub frame connectors without squaring the body on a frame machine? Darts, Mustangs, etc. Sure every magazine article and everybody at home does it that way. Nothing like having a solid subcarriage with a 1/2 inch twist built into it. LOL. People don't even know it but they are happy they have sub frame connectors.

Repeat, IMO it is a whole lot easier to brace it first and not really need it, than to try to jack it straight to get the chassis lined while you try to weld in the top.
JMO :welcome:
 
#13 ·
I don't know if you can detect it in this pic...the car was original paint except for the GTS /Swinger hood, and the right front fender. I know the history of the car back to 1980. Sometime in the first 11 years, it either lost a lower balljoint or sheared the spindle...most likey a ball joint. The lower kick panel shows repairs for the tire & wheel trying to get through the kick panel :rolleyes:

Can you spot that the tip of the front fender seems too low? It was, by 3/4". The new fender that was put on back then, did not fit without bowing out at the wheel opening. The right unibody was shoved down.

I drove the car part way onto my car trailer. Then we used heavy chain on the rear of the torsion bar to the tail of the trailer. I then put wood cribbing all the way across the rear under the bumper, as well as blocking the trailer bed so it was stable. I had straight edges laid across the engine compartment at the front and rear. My son eyeballed the 2 edges before, during, and after the following repair...

Next I put a huge 20 ton bottle jack under the right side rad support. The trailer was really flexing more than the Dart :D , so I drilled the row of spotwelds at the firewall where the inner fender meets. I really put the push to it, went slightly beyond 3/4" and then rewelded before releasing the jack. It ended up dead perfect.

After that serious racking, I was concerned about door problems because it was a convertible. It never changed the gaps at all. That's why I said what I did about bracing. If he starts the job on flat floor, I just can't see the body doing anything at all. JMO ;)


By the way, the Centerline wheels are gone, they never bothered to measure a Dart wheelwell before marketing a wheel for these cars...they don't fit :pain: Plus they constantly leaked :D
 
#14 ·
I got started on the job today. All the spot welds for the drip rail are in the crevice of the rail. This is really easy to get to. The lead filled seam was higher than i thought . It was about 6 inches up the sail panel. I will be drilling spot welds Thursday. I still have to get the windows out. I could use bracing on this and be sure but i want to see if it needs it or not.If it did ill have made a mistake others can learn from. If it doesnt flex, we will all know. This whole project is alot of experimentation. I have no idea what im doing, but i will when its done. Thank you again for all the advice. Can anyone tell me how they get the windows out
 
#15 ·
The windows are removed with a "cut out knife", (God I haven't worked on one of those cars in years, it is a urethane set glass isn't it?) a manual one can be bought at an autobody store. The windshield will likely break using this method for a newbe. Before I knew this, I cut them out all the time without breaking. :D

The back glass is no big deal as it is tempered and you would SERIOUSLY have to screw up to break. Use your common sense and you will be fine.

Click here for cut out knife.



But honestly, you should replace the windshield anyway, if it has any signs of age, there is nothing that gives you the new car feel more than a new windshield, and those don't cost very much.

Now, do you have the "Donor" roof? If you don't, STOP. Always have the donor when you cut out parts. You never know, you may need to do it a little different do to the condition of the donor.

Be sure the car is on level ground when you remove that roof skin.

Brian
 
#16 ·
i will wait for a donor roof and the fix on the problem below to proceed. I cant believe how hard it is to find one for a decent price being i can get a roof from any 2 door hard top car from 67 to 76 anywhere in the country. I cant find one under a thousand dollars. I was expecting to pay maybe 300 or so.

How do you use that tool. Its very strange looking to me. Ive never seen one of those before.

On another sad note.I think my frame is bent. The door has a Large 1/8 inch gap between the door and the fender and the same gap between the door and the quarter panel. If i line it up one side or the other the gap will be more to one side and be a 1/4 inch gap. something is wrong, maybe the gap is more than a 1?4, I know for a fact something is not right and its not panel alignment.
The passenger side wheel sticks out further than the drivers side and the driver side tire would hit if the panel and alignment of wheels was fixed so it wouldn't. the windshield has a crack going horizontal right in the middle of the windshield. I think my car was hit in the drivers side fender at the wheel and bent the frame toward the passenger side a 1/4 inch making this big door gap and pushing the drivers side tire a quarter inch forward so it would hit the fenderwell and making the passenger side wheel stick out of the panel. How can i fix this. I see no cracks or torn metal. I have a body measurement chart and everything measures fine in some places i checked like under the hood. The person who aligned my door last tried to compensate by putting it in the middle to have an equal gap and did a good job.I called a frame guy and he will look at it next week. I have pics of this for you to see if you can tell me how to post them. or i can e mail them. I never took this seriously because i was never going to make the car nice. If im going to replace the roof i might as well make it nice and straight. I still have high spirits and only find one more learning experience with this mess. Cant learn if you don't try.

I need a roof for a 2 door hard top dart from 67 to 76 anywhere in the southern U.S. as my dad drives a truck in most parts of the country or a $400 parts car close to tennessee.
 
#17 ·
You need to find out if the car is racked out of shape before worrying about a roof skin.


From your words, you think the nose is bent over to one side? If that is true, look at the side hood gaps as well as the rear edge hood gap. If the nose is racked, the hood will be way off.


Also, do what I did with our dart: Open the hood. Get two long, perfectly straight "straightedges". These can be pipe, or angle iron, whatever. Place one as far back towards the hood hinges as possible across the tops of each fender. Then the other one way up front. Now back away from the car and see if they are both paralell with each other. I would think they should be "off" if it was hit real hard. You could take it one step further with longer straightedges and put one across the rear fenders with the trunk open (so it will rest on the tops of the quarters) Then sight all 3 of the straightedges to see if there may be a twist in the CENTER of the car.


Next, back far away from the car and sight down each side of the car; looking from the rear as well as the front. Compare both sides carefully to see if the car sides are straight, or if the car is bent off to one side.
 
#18 ·
Convertibles have stronger substructure. They are designed from the get-go for no top.

Nearly every car we get in for "restoration" is tweaked. The owners insist they are straight but very few are.

Any car needs to be totally squared and straightened on a frame machine before doing any rework or body panel replacement. Few get it.
 
#19 ·
my car will go on the rack before anything is done to any panel. As for what you said. now ill spend the extra on every old car i restore to make sure the body is straight. I would like to know where the added structure is for the convertible. Ive thought about making a convertible out of another car i own.
 
#20 ·
A unibody roofed car is like a truss.
On a convertible the only thing tying the front to the rear is the rocker panels primarily, and the floor. The doors don't stiffen the structure.
Usually the rockers are thicker metal and have additional boxed layers inside to add strength and rigidity. At the pinch weld at the bottom exterior an additional layer of metal can usually be seen between the rocker skin and the floorpan skin.
Converting an unibody hartop to a convertible would require substantial subframe connectors and probably some floor strengthening BEFORE removing the top.
Remember between those wheels (say 116" wheelbase) about half way in the middle the only thing keeping the car from bending in half is that 6 inch tall rocker panel made of sheet metal, so it better be stout.
 
#21 ·
update

I had the frame checked. My frame checked out ok. I rebuilt the door hinge and lined up the doors as perfect as i could. The result i got was still not what i was looking for. I have a 1/4 inch gap where my wing window frame touches the the seal. it should be 1/8th. My gap behind my door is 1/8th too wide. my gap in front of the door is 1/8th or more too wide. if i pull the door back to close that gap i will make the wing window frame and front of the door gap wider. My car is a 69 dart. the door is from a 70. we measured the door. it is the same as the other side of the car (which is perfectly aligned) we measured the corner of the rocker to the top of the car (diagonal measurement) and got the same numbers. To simplify all this. my gaps are too wide with no room for adjustment. my measurements are the same on both sides of the car. my door measures the same. Its almost like the drivers side of the car was stretched 1/4 inch too long but the measurements stayed the same. The guy i took it to told me to replace the fender and door. The hood was replaced and the drivers door was replaced. the fenders are stock original to the car. the windshield does have a crack across the top about halfway down. The hood is perfectly aligned.I could adjust the wing window forward but the gaps will still be off down below. The passenger side wheel ended up being different offsets. What do you think this is?
 
#25 ·
do you think maybe a new door might help. Sounds kind of crazy but i thought about doing a perfect alignment(which is done already) drilling the door skin spots with the door closed cutting the skin (sectioning the door) in half and move the rear section of the panel to perfect alignment and spot weld it back on leaving the 1/4 inch gap in the center of the door running from top to bottom. Then removing a piece from another door 1/4 inch wide and welding that gap closed. it this feasible or is it overkill. maybe i need a new door, why are all the measurements the same on both sides but one is perfect? thoughts on this mess
 
#26 ·
glhx said:
do you think maybe a new door might help. Sounds kind of crazy but i thought about doing a perfect alignment(which is done already) drilling the door skin spots with the door closed cutting the skin (sectioning the door) in half and move the rear section of the panel to perfect alignment and spot weld it back on leaving the 1/4 inch gap in the center of the door running from top to bottom. Then removing a piece from another door 1/4 inch wide and welding that gap closed. it this feasible or is it overkill. maybe i need a new door, why are all the measurements the same on both sides but one is perfect? thoughts on this mess
Never cut a panel or door in the center to gain a little. You'd ruin the door. If you must add to the door, you can weld metal rod to the door edges; much less work.

If it was my car, I would spend whatever time it takes to find out exactly what that gap error is caused by.....before doing any mods. Sometimes doing a modification, leads to a another nightmare further into the restoration.

If there really is a factory error, it should be detectable by measuring from many different points, or perhaps even by making thin cardboard templates of areas like the front w/s post angles or other places. Spend time this way first, rather than assuming a certain part needs modding. JMO

Yes, there are factory errors on 69 darts, (among other years & brands). Our 69 Dart has several; the worst one is where the back of the left rocker is welded to the lower part of the rear quarter. The quarter is "out" about 3/16 to 1/4" and shows as a "ramp" made od body lead, instead of a smooth panel.


As far as the comments on 70-up cudas & challengers.... Yes, they were junky when new. If you moderately slammed the door and viewed it from outside, the car flexed :rolleyes: . And I am talking a BRAND new one, right off the truck. Those later chargers were the same, and you could see the nose shake when you slammed a door :rolleyes: Mopars had the reputation of "having a tin can body, but went like *ell". :D But we still like them all :thumbup:
 
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