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which respirator with 2k primer?

36K views 23 replies 11 participants last post by  mrcleanr6 
#1 ·
I wanted to spray some HOK 2k primer (the chromate free one) and the 2k basecoat sealer, anyone know if these contain isocyanites? I don't have a freshair mask just a organic half mask. Would it be safe to spray these with a NIOSH approved organic respirator?
 
#2 ·
As a general safety rule I always use a dual cartrige carbon filter respirator anytime I spray anything. My lungs are far too valuable and the cost of a quality respirator is minimul in comparison. Buy a good one and change the filters regularly. You will have to consult the spec sheet that came with your filters to see if they protect you or not. Most carbon filters will provide adequate protection in the short term.

Vince
 
#3 ·
Hmm, makes me wonder about the primer I was spraying the other day. It was also an epoxy primer but not chromate free as far as I know. It is a ChemSpec product made here in South Africa, and it is a base for a HoK Kandy job.

I was using a dual cartridge respirator, but it didn't come with a spec sheet when I bought it, so I don't even know if it has carbon filters. I know that I couldn't really even smell the paint through it, only when I took the mask off.

Rich
 
#5 ·
rlackey said:
Hmm, makes me wonder about the primer I was spraying the other day. It was also an epoxy primer but not chromate free as far as I know. It is a ChemSpec product made here in South Africa, and it is a base for a HoK Kandy job.

I was using a dual cartridge respirator, but it didn't come with a spec sheet when I bought it, so I don't even know if it has carbon filters. I know that I couldn't really even smell the paint through it, only when I took the mask off.

Rich
rich, your respirator will be fine with epoxy.

the chromate free primer is an epoxy primer surfacer so it doesn't have any iso's to worry about, only the ko-seal. yes fresh air is recommended but i have heard people that have used a cartridge respirator everyday for 25 years and no porblems so i would say yes they do remove the iso's. i myself use a dual cartridge with no problems. the iso is odorless so keep track of how much use the respirator gets and change it often. make sure when not in use to keep it sealed in a bag.
 
#7 ·
Exactly. NONE are rated for ISO's.
Still dosen't keep me from using one though,better than the alternative. ;)

I use the regular dual cart, for all prep work/primer paint. I change the pre filters as needed to keep the main one's free of dust residue.
I change the charcoal type with each major shoot.
The other important aspect is facial hair.
If you have hair between the mask and your face seal.Your sucking fumes.

The last thing is your EYE'S. They will absorb just as much as your mouth.
 
#8 ·
Bee4Me said:
Exactly. NONE are rated for ISO's.
Still dosen't keep me from using one though,better than the alternative. ;)

I use the regular dual cart, for all prep work/primer paint. I change the pre filters as needed to keep the main one's free of dust residue.
I change the charcoal type with each major shoot.
The other important aspect is facial hair.
If you have hair between the mask and your face seal.Your sucking fumes.

The last thing is your EYE'S. They will absorb just as much as your mouth.
So should we be wearing goggles while painting? Surely ISO's through the eyes aren't going to result in lung disease. This is the first I have heard of this.

Rich
 
#9 ·
ISO'S are absorbed thru any opening into the body. Skin,Eye's,Ears,ect...
It will absorb into a pack of cig's laying in the area and when you light up your getting a good hit.
Besides the safety factor of accidentally spraying yourself in the face,(that never happens), eye protection is a MUST IMO. Yes, It is a MPIA with vision but if you've EVER had this happen you'll be SO GLAD you had a pair of at least safety glasses on.
I'm no expert on ISO's and I'm SURE BarryK can enlighten us but the real effect of ISO's on on the Nervous System not necessarily the lungs.
 
#10 · (Edited)
The 3 most common isocyanates found in 2K hardeners are:
HEXAMETHYLENE DIISOCYANATE
ISOPHRONE DIISOCYANATE
DIPHENYLMETHANE DIISOCYANATE

Here is a link to the 2005 3M Respirator Selection Guide:

http://home.austin.rr.com/lt1/3mRespGuide.pdf
As you can see, 3M's recommended cartridge for these isocyanates is OV/N95. (Organic Vapor with particulate pre-filter)
However it states either "Warning Unknown" or "Poor Warning".

Due to the danger of the isocyanates and the poor warning combination, supplied air respirators are the recommended way to go.

If you are going to use the OV cartridge while shooting 2K paints, I would use new cartridges everyday and make sure your mask fits tightly. Also make sure you get the best ventilation possible in your garage or spraybooth to keep the concentrations as low as possible.

Roger
 
#11 ·
Man, I hate to say this because I feel I should know better by now, but I never really knew just how nasty this stuff is! I'll be wearing eye protection next time for sure.

It sounds like the battle is lost before it's begun though... we can't possibly keep from absorbing some of this stuff unless we were to paint in a full airtight body suit. If I have to absorb some of this stuff, I'm just glad I'm not an auto refinisher by trade. At a guess, I expect I may only paint maybe twenty cars max in my whole lifetime.

Now I know why there are such strict controls on the use of this stuff. For some reason I remember trying to get 2k products once in the UK to spray at home, and I couldn't even get anyone to sell it to me. I wasn't sure wether it was a legal thing or not, but it would make sense that they don't want everyone spraying this stuff into the neighborhood air all over the place.

They wanted to know if I had a proper booth with a fresh air ventilation system and the whole nine yards... of course I didn't, so I had to spray a 1k urethane if I remember correctly, I'm not sure exactly what it was but I didn't mix it with anything, just shot it, wet sanded and buffed, no clear or anything. I know it wasn't a 2k system, and I was allowed to spray it at home.

Rich
 
#13 ·
willys36@aol.com said:
It amazes me that all those real smart chemists at paint companies can't come up with a safe alternative to iso. Guess they are concentrating on perfecting water based latex auto paints instead of supporting a dying horse.
Yeah, you would have thought they would want to keep the people that use thier products alive at least! Slowly poisoning or killing off your clients doesn't make much business sense to me really. I could be wrong though, I guess there are plenty of other companies slowly killing us with thier products, and they don't seem to mind as long as we keep buying them.

Water based latex? I used that when I painted my living room walls, how does that work for an automotive application?

Rich
 
#14 ·
The key to using a carbon respirator while spraying paint containing isocyonates is "in air" concentration. If you are using only a cartridge type respirator long enough to paint a car in a non ventilated garage you are probably getting a dose of isocyonates. A dual cartridge carbon respirator will become saturated in a very short time in a high concentration area. Due to the fact that isocyonates are odorless you will not realize it. Changing the filters when you can sense a restriction is not good enough when dealing with isocyonates, IMO it's too late by that time.

The filter manufactures intentionally disallow isocyonates as a disclaimer to avoid possibility of a lawsuit due to the nasty nature of isocyonates.

Vince
 
#16 ·
302/Z28 said:
The key to using a carbon respirator while spraying paint containing isocyonates is "in air" concentration. If you are using only a cartridge type respirator long enough to paint a car in a non ventilated garage you are probably getting a dose of isocyonates. A dual cartridge carbon respirator will become saturated in a very short time in a high concentration area. Due to the fact that isocyonates are odorless you will not realize it. Changing the filters when you can sense a restriction is not good enough when dealing with isocyonates, IMO it's too late by that time.

The filter manufactures intentionally disallow isocyonates as a disclaimer to avoid possibility of a lawsuit due to the nasty nature of isocyonates.

Vince
**********************************************
This is exactly right. Niosh rates the charcoal filters as OK for ISO's but the manufacturers say no for lawsuit reasons. Also if in an enclosed not ventilated area you better be covered head to toe.
The normal paint booth or open garage the dual cartages work just fine, goggles are always a good idea.
 
#17 ·
BarryK,

Willys touched on this but hopefully you can shed some additional light. What, exactly, IS on the horizon for automotive paints in terms of providing a product that isn't going to poison the painter or the environment? And how far off is that horizon?

I have been considering an actual paint job on the rat rod once it is done. If I stay with the primer look I'm going to use one part flat enamel. And if I go with a color I'm seriously thinking about cheapo acrylic enamel or acrylic lacquer. Seems like the lessor of the evils to me in terms of safety. The enamel is unforgiving and the lacquer is a lot more work and less durable (plus has some bad side effects as well)...but for the hobbyist without an air fed respirator, full body suit, and perfectly ventilated paint booth, it just seems like the safer choice.
 
#18 ·
cboy said:
BarryK,

Willys touched on this but hopefully you can shed some additional light. What, exactly, IS on the horizon for automotive paints in terms of providing a product that isn't going to poison the painter or the environment? And how far off is that horizon?

*****************************************************
Well in short, long after you and I are gone.

Uv cured, Waterborne they are touted as safer because they don't have iso's
but its a trade off with the other chemicals used. In my book they're not a bit safer.
Back about 3 years ago Randy Wein wrote a one pager in ABRN about how unsafe waterborne were and had put a lot of study into this for about 6 months before he wrote it and the majors threaten to pull advertising unless he was banned, remember a full page ad is $15,000 per issue, yes he was banned. Bad timing because at the time PPG was pushing the water-basecoat
fro ICI they had purchased as safe, safe and safe.

Stick your finger in urethane reducer and 15 seconds later it will show up in a urine test.
I just don't see anything major coming down the pike, Most of the RDC money is going to the UV cured products but there are major problems and expense issues so for now maybe small spots of primer but the home doer is not going to spend $1500 for a lamp to cure a 1 foot section.
Is it safer, other than less over spray, I done think it is.
 
#20 ·
yea iso's are pretty nasty stuff, but I don't have enough for a fresh air supply hood yet. so what exactly is the chromate free 2k primer different from the other 2k primers from HOK? do these have Iso's ? Also the primer sealer ,ko-seal 2 has iso's in it? I have contacted HOK about msds sheets but no replys.

between the hok 2k primers which is safer:
KP-2CF KWIKURE EPOXY PRIMER (chromate free)
KP-21 KWIKURE EPOXY PRIMER

and theres also two ko-seal II sealers, one is 2.1 voc and the other is 4.58 voc

heres the link to the different HOK products link
 
#21 ·
Iso's a really only used in Clear's.
They are strongest when in their free nomer state which is when you open their container and are pouring into the cup.So use a resp WHEN mixing.
A regular respirator is fine for shooting anything other than them.
Chromates and such are additives which are kinda nasty in their own right but no where near the caliber of ISO's.
Young people believe they are indestructible and can breath straight acid fumes and rock on the next day,myself included,BUT,
IT WILL CATCH UP WITH YOU.
I'm paying the price now for my misguided youth and TRUST ME on this...


Take CARE of YOURSELF NOW and you won't regret it later.


I have basically spent the last 3 weeks fighting a upper respiratory infection due primarily in part ot my job (Sheetmetal change out work,DUST<MOLD) along with grinding,sanding,welding on the 59 mostly without a mask of sorts.
3 trips to the doctor and several prescriptions later,I'm back to normal,sort of.

I know better but still I persist in being an idiot some days. :boxing:

Get a mask ,ANY mask, and keep yourself healthy to get that ride finished in timely fashion. Nothing worse than laying in bed sick WISHING you were working on the project instead.
 
#22 ·
First, I know nothing about the house of color primers as they are not the same thing as when John owned the company.

I assume you are talking about "lead Chromate" did not know they offered it but although going back 20 years it has been removed from most products we spray there are still yellows, some reds and orange colors that have them.

No body take this the wrong way, as I believe in protecting yourself as much as anyone but i spent over 10 years spray chromate loaded products like a lot of the old folks have on here and its not something thats is going to do you in with one time use (WITH A RESPIRATOR) it builds in your system over time like ISO'S do. Yes if in a closed up room with a lot of iso's and no mask you could die but we don't paint in closed up rooms with no airflow.

Will you shoot this epoxy one time a year?
If you don't smoke and spend a night at a bar and smoke a pack of cigs, will you get cancer?
Not likely!

Spray in a place with airflow and wear a good respirator and if you can afford it buy a fresh air system but as often as us part-timers paint if we use common sense its really not a problem.

Perhaps this is the last person a statement like this should come from and I'm not trying to kill anyone here, just trying to point out that over exposure to anything can kill you or cause cancer and gas is a good example "can cause cancer" By filling up you car everyday? No, but play in it 8 hours a day and it can.

Probably would have been better off not to have written this but hope you understand what I'm trying to say.
 
#23 ·
yes allot of people don't realize how bad the auto paintis. I will be painting probably 2 bikes when still using a charchol respirator (new cartridge each time) after that I will have enough profit to buy the sata air hood and thier filtration system, and also a homade 10x10 spraybooth. but hopefully I will be up to 4 bikes a month.

They have one primer called KP-21 which doesnt say it has chromates but then thiers also one thats chromate free for just a little more money. From what I've gathered so far the primers don't have Iso's but the sealers do because they use the same catalyst as the clears (ku-150??) but from a recent study by OSHA they say that the masks will filter Iso's

quote:
"Isocyanate exposures were generally below the various evaluation criteria. One sample did exceed the NIOSH ceiling RELs indicating a need for protective measures. NIOSH recommends air supplied respirators whenever there is the potential for exposure to isocyanates. There are no NIOSH approved air-purifying respirators for isocyanates because isocyanates have no odor warning properties to indicate breakthrough of the cartridge. Studies have shown that combination dust/mist and organic cartridges effectively stop isocyanates and that the various solvents, particularly n-butyl acetate, will break through the cartridge long before the isocyanates.32-34 Therefore, the combination dust/mist/organic air-purifying respirators should provide adequate protection against the small amounts of isocyanate present and the n-butyl acetate odor can be used to indicate breakthrough of the cartridges. Eye and skin protection also needs to be provided with isocyanate monomers."

just some food for thought
 
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