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Old 04-06-2005, 12:48 AM
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which respirator with 2k primer?

I wanted to spray some HOK 2k primer (the chromate free one) and the 2k basecoat sealer, anyone know if these contain isocyanites? I don't have a freshair mask just a organic half mask. Would it be safe to spray these with a NIOSH approved organic respirator?

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Old 04-06-2005, 06:00 AM
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As a general safety rule I always use a dual cartrige carbon filter respirator anytime I spray anything. My lungs are far too valuable and the cost of a quality respirator is minimul in comparison. Buy a good one and change the filters regularly. You will have to consult the spec sheet that came with your filters to see if they protect you or not. Most carbon filters will provide adequate protection in the short term.

Vince
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Old 04-06-2005, 06:36 AM
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Hmm, makes me wonder about the primer I was spraying the other day. It was also an epoxy primer but not chromate free as far as I know. It is a ChemSpec product made here in South Africa, and it is a base for a HoK Kandy job.

I was using a dual cartridge respirator, but it didn't come with a spec sheet when I bought it, so I don't even know if it has carbon filters. I know that I couldn't really even smell the paint through it, only when I took the mask off.

Rich
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Old 04-06-2005, 07:03 AM
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i believe iso's are colorless and odorless.
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Old 04-06-2005, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlackey
Hmm, makes me wonder about the primer I was spraying the other day. It was also an epoxy primer but not chromate free as far as I know. It is a ChemSpec product made here in South Africa, and it is a base for a HoK Kandy job.

I was using a dual cartridge respirator, but it didn't come with a spec sheet when I bought it, so I don't even know if it has carbon filters. I know that I couldn't really even smell the paint through it, only when I took the mask off.

Rich
rich, your respirator will be fine with epoxy.

the chromate free primer is an epoxy primer surfacer so it doesn't have any iso's to worry about, only the ko-seal. yes fresh air is recommended but i have heard people that have used a cartridge respirator everyday for 25 years and no porblems so i would say yes they do remove the iso's. i myself use a dual cartridge with no problems. the iso is odorless so keep track of how much use the respirator gets and change it often. make sure when not in use to keep it sealed in a bag.
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Old 04-06-2005, 08:57 AM
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Interesting note - the top-of-the-line charcoal filters all specifically say in their safety warnings that they are not intended for use w/ isocyanate!
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Old 04-06-2005, 09:13 AM
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Exactly. NONE are rated for ISO's.
Still dosen't keep me from using one though,better than the alternative.

I use the regular dual cart, for all prep work/primer paint. I change the pre filters as needed to keep the main one's free of dust residue.
I change the charcoal type with each major shoot.
The other important aspect is facial hair.
If you have hair between the mask and your face seal.Your sucking fumes.

The last thing is your EYE'S. They will absorb just as much as your mouth.
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Old 04-06-2005, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bee4Me
Exactly. NONE are rated for ISO's.
Still dosen't keep me from using one though,better than the alternative.

I use the regular dual cart, for all prep work/primer paint. I change the pre filters as needed to keep the main one's free of dust residue.
I change the charcoal type with each major shoot.
The other important aspect is facial hair.
If you have hair between the mask and your face seal.Your sucking fumes.

The last thing is your EYE'S. They will absorb just as much as your mouth.
So should we be wearing goggles while painting? Surely ISO's through the eyes aren't going to result in lung disease. This is the first I have heard of this.

Rich
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Old 04-06-2005, 09:34 AM
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ISO'S are absorbed thru any opening into the body. Skin,Eye's,Ears,ect...
It will absorb into a pack of cig's laying in the area and when you light up your getting a good hit.
Besides the safety factor of accidentally spraying yourself in the face,(that never happens), eye protection is a MUST IMO. Yes, It is a MPIA with vision but if you've EVER had this happen you'll be SO GLAD you had a pair of at least safety glasses on.
I'm no expert on ISO's and I'm SURE BarryK can enlighten us but the real effect of ISO's on on the Nervous System not necessarily the lungs.
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Old 04-06-2005, 09:51 AM
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The 3 most common isocyanates found in 2K hardeners are:
HEXAMETHYLENE DIISOCYANATE
ISOPHRONE DIISOCYANATE
DIPHENYLMETHANE DIISOCYANATE

Here is a link to the 2005 3M Respirator Selection Guide:

http://home.austin.rr.com/lt1/3mRespGuide.pdf
As you can see, 3M's recommended cartridge for these isocyanates is OV/N95. (Organic Vapor with particulate pre-filter)
However it states either "Warning Unknown" or "Poor Warning".

Due to the danger of the isocyanates and the poor warning combination, supplied air respirators are the recommended way to go.

If you are going to use the OV cartridge while shooting 2K paints, I would use new cartridges everyday and make sure your mask fits tightly. Also make sure you get the best ventilation possible in your garage or spraybooth to keep the concentrations as low as possible.

Roger

Last edited by roger1; 04-07-2005 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 04-06-2005, 09:52 AM
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Man, I hate to say this because I feel I should know better by now, but I never really knew just how nasty this stuff is! I'll be wearing eye protection next time for sure.

It sounds like the battle is lost before it's begun though... we can't possibly keep from absorbing some of this stuff unless we were to paint in a full airtight body suit. If I have to absorb some of this stuff, I'm just glad I'm not an auto refinisher by trade. At a guess, I expect I may only paint maybe twenty cars max in my whole lifetime.

Now I know why there are such strict controls on the use of this stuff. For some reason I remember trying to get 2k products once in the UK to spray at home, and I couldn't even get anyone to sell it to me. I wasn't sure wether it was a legal thing or not, but it would make sense that they don't want everyone spraying this stuff into the neighborhood air all over the place.

They wanted to know if I had a proper booth with a fresh air ventilation system and the whole nine yards... of course I didn't, so I had to spray a 1k urethane if I remember correctly, I'm not sure exactly what it was but I didn't mix it with anything, just shot it, wet sanded and buffed, no clear or anything. I know it wasn't a 2k system, and I was allowed to spray it at home.

Rich
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Old 04-06-2005, 09:57 AM
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It amazes me that all those real smart chemists at paint companies can't come up with a safe alternative to iso. Guess they are concentrating on perfecting water based latex auto paints instead of supporting a dying horse.
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Old 04-06-2005, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willys36@aol.com
It amazes me that all those real smart chemists at paint companies can't come up with a safe alternative to iso. Guess they are concentrating on perfecting water based latex auto paints instead of supporting a dying horse.
Yeah, you would have thought they would want to keep the people that use thier products alive at least! Slowly poisoning or killing off your clients doesn't make much business sense to me really. I could be wrong though, I guess there are plenty of other companies slowly killing us with thier products, and they don't seem to mind as long as we keep buying them.

Water based latex? I used that when I painted my living room walls, how does that work for an automotive application?

Rich
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Old 04-06-2005, 10:30 AM
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The key to using a carbon respirator while spraying paint containing isocyonates is "in air" concentration. If you are using only a cartridge type respirator long enough to paint a car in a non ventilated garage you are probably getting a dose of isocyonates. A dual cartridge carbon respirator will become saturated in a very short time in a high concentration area. Due to the fact that isocyonates are odorless you will not realize it. Changing the filters when you can sense a restriction is not good enough when dealing with isocyonates, IMO it's too late by that time.

The filter manufactures intentionally disallow isocyonates as a disclaimer to avoid possibility of a lawsuit due to the nasty nature of isocyonates.

Vince
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Old 04-06-2005, 11:21 AM
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My sister-in-law works at Ford in their paint department.
She says they use water base paint on all the trucks she works on,
and has for some time.
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