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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2012, 04:09 PM
BigChevyFTW
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did you apply oil to the piston sides and the rings when you installed them?

because alot of people coat the sides of the pistons including the rings and they have the same issue your describing.
which is a big no no.

only a little oil is required on the pin and skirts and i mean a little.

if you did oil them up real good and oil got onto the rings it will not let them seat and blow by will happen.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2012, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigChevyFTW View Post
did you apply oil to the piston sides and the rings when you installed them?

because alot of people coat the sides of the pistons including the rings and they have the same issue your describing.
which is a big no no.

only a little oil is required on the pin and skirts and i mean a little.

if you did oil them up real good and oil got onto the rings it will not let them seat and blow by will happen.

Ive seen guys dip their pistons and rings in a bucket of oil years ago one was Grumpy Jenkins, another was Garlets, among many others and through the years we learned it made a mess and you only needed a little lube on the rings and piston and a lite coat on the cylinder!!! But I would never install piston rings dry or have dry ring lands! You do what you like but in 50 years of building Ive never had rings not seat or fail down the road!!! and that's in diesle, alchohol, race fuel, nitro , boats , aircraft etc etc. If all you guys install dry rings Ive been in the twilight zone !!! LOL

But do what your comfortable with and you know works And I wont enter into changing peoples minds!!!!!!!

Jester
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2012, 06:37 PM
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The machine shop that did the block builds a lot of race motors for boats and he had the pistons and rings so he knew what he was working with and the fact that it is a forced induction motor. But, like you say, It doesn't mean it was honed correctly.

I'm a bit worried about re-honing the block as the pistons already have over .005 clearance and that doesn't leave me with any good options. The pistons are custom so they are expensive and the block for this motor has been fitted with splayed caps, line bored and honed, decked and clearanced for the upgraded rod bolts so it's probably a wash as to which is cheaper.

I assembled this motor in February and all I did for lube on the rings and pistons is wipe them with a film of engine oil and same for the bores.
Then it sat for four months before it was started.

Thanks for the input.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2012, 08:50 PM
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Um... you have a turbo motor and your checking leak down when its cold? It should be high even if they seated your ring gaps are huge compared to na. Tune it the best you can then put some time on the engine. After an oil change or two then look at it. You're getting all worked up over nothing right now, plenty of engines have high leak down when assembled. Plenty of purpose built turbo engines have high leak down their entire life cycle and show no problems.
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Old 06-30-2012, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by americanLT1 View Post
I checked the block before I assembled it and the bores were round and straight within about .0003.
The piston have about .0055 clearance.
With out a torque plate ir cylinder head bolted on the bores were that straight and round it was not plate honed thats for sure!!
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2012, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by americanLT1 View Post
The machine shop that did the block builds a lot of race motors for boats and he had the pistons and rings so he knew what he was working with and the fact that it is a forced induction motor. But, like you say, It doesn't mean it was honed correctly.

I'm a bit worried about re-honing the block as the pistons already have over .005 clearance and that doesn't leave me with any good options. The pistons are custom so they are expensive and the block for this motor has been fitted with splayed caps, line bored and honed, decked and clearanced for the upgraded rod bolts so it's probably a wash as to which is cheaper.

I assembled this motor in February and all I did for lube on the rings and pistons is wipe them with a film of engine oil and same for the bores.
Then it sat for four months before it was started.

Thanks for the input.


Didnt know it was forced induction!!! AP 72 is right you have no time at all on this engine! You shouldn't worry yet! your fowled plugs are nothing!! Your oil controll ring is designed to coat the cylinder on the up stroke with oil and to wipe off excess on the down stroke supplying a small amount of lubrication to the rings and the hash marks from the hone hold this oil and as the rings break in there will be less and less oil excess as the oil controle ring will become more efficient in its ability to do its job! As break in continues compression will rise!


You sound confident in your machine shop you should trust them!!! What did they tell you?

I run my engines after initial break in and oil and filter change when they cant be driven on the road, for about 7or 8 hrs running for a couple of hrs and shutting down till cool and restarting, and running again at varying rpms By the time the 7 hrs run time is over the break in is usually finished and I change oil and filter again before my customers picked up their cars! ( never trusted customers to break in their cars right) I did this on my wheel Dino in a shop so I could take care of jetting and any tuning problems I would run across but you can do it stationary! Done with a load is better in my opinion! Others on here have probably come up with other ways and can probably suggest theirs !!

The set up you have is very complicated to tune, and I would suggest taking it to a Dino even if your doing your own tuning the expense is well worth it!! and by the looks of your pretty engine Im drooling here I would guess you can afford it! Even if you have to hall it across state!

Chris
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2012, 11:20 AM
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It could very well be that it has too much clearance as .005 is more than is recommended for todays pistons that don't expand much. A example is a while back where the machine shop goofed on my block. When I gave it to them it only had .001 clearance, so a hone was fine. When I got it back I had to get it assembled and in fast, as it was my only way of getting around at the time. I didn't check the bores, I just thought it was cool and went on with the build. I used KB hyper pistons. All that is recommended with there hyper pistons is about .0015 in piston to wall clearance. Anyways, I fired it up and it sounded like a diesel, and I was mistified to why at the time. I ran it maybe 2 weeks. It didn't smoke, didn't use oil, it seemed fine. THen at the end of the second week it started smoking. Not long after I pulled the heads and mic'd the bores, it was 4.009 and I was completely baffled by how in the world it got to that size, especially when it started out at 4.001 when I got it. I didn't even bother to take the block back to the machinist and find out what happened. By that time I was tired of fooling with it. So in turn I took a $5000 loss on that engine. About a week later I went and bought a Chevy pickup. So my point here is, at first, even with .009 clearance the rings still seated. But due to the excessive bore clearance it didn't take long for the wear and lack of ring landing support before it started smoking. I realize your running a turbo charger so a little more clearance maybe needed. But if the piston company didn't recommend .0055 clearance I wouldn't have went that far. If they only recommended .0025 at maximum, then with a turbo engine I wouldn't have went past .0035
Also keep in mind with that much clearance it can and will break the skirts.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2012, 11:48 AM
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.0055" clearance sounds about right to me for a set of custom forged pistons on forced induction and my guess is pretty healthy boost!! Im also guessing he spared no expense on these pistons and the machine shop had the pistons there when doing the machine work and set clearances as recommended and I also guess they had the pistons sized and fit to each particular cylinder and numbered so they would not be mixed up and the wrong piston installed into the wrong cylinder. Thats just a guess by looking at the money spent on what I see in the picture!!! Usually more moneys spent on internals and machine work to blueprint!

Chris
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2012, 01:10 PM
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Thanks again for all the input guys.
You got me curious so I dug out the paper work that came with the pistons and they spec .0045 clearance but there is also an application sheet that states an additional clearance of .001 minimum to .003 maximum for blower, turbo or nitrous applications with the 2618 alloy pistons.
The pistons weren't marked for a particular bore location but I checked all the pistons and they were within a few tenths of each other as were the bores so I matched the pistons to bores for the best fit.
This is a very different motor than I'm used to so maybe I'm anxious over nothing but I have a ton of work and money in this thing and money is a concern. I have been building this car for 8 years and I give up a lot to be able to do this and do everything myself, with the exception of engine machine work.Although I did install the splayed caps myself but don't have the equipment to do the other machining.

What really caught my attention that there may be a problem is the laminated aluminum header gaskets I'm using obviously don't seal all that well and after running a while little trails of oil were trickling down from most the ports.
That's when I pulled the plugs and they definitely had oil on them but from what some of you are stating that may not be unusual for this application.
After I put new plugs in it yesterday and played with the tune more it ran better and it really doesn't smoke much. It may be a different story when it's loaded down but this car is months away from being driveable.
I appreciate you guys taking the time to share your experience.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2012, 01:33 PM
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Have you pulled one of the pipes off the inlet to see if you might have oil entering from the turbo oil seals?

That is one bad *********engine.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2012, 04:42 PM
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That's one of the first things I thought of so I called Garrett Turbo last week and he asked me a few of questions about my set up, oil pressure, drain line and oil supply. He said the fact that the turbos are new and the motor hasn't even been in boost yet, it's unlikely they are leaking.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2012, 07:41 PM
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On the same subject I put a set of perfectcircle chrome moly rings in my ford 2.3l thinking I may run nitrous or boost some day and they sealed up fast and very well, even when the engine is stone cold. I honed the cylinders myself in the garage too, nothing fancy.

Those rings really impressed me.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2012, 10:38 AM
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Hey LT1: I mentioned this once but its very impotent you must run ZDDP with hell fire rings !!! Its highly recommended by the manufacturer!! A lot of rings need the Zddp and many "dont"! but Hellfire rings are one that does!! It is highly recommended I hope you come back on and read this !!!!!

For proper ring seating on those rings you also need high efficiency crank case evacuation system !!! A pcv and breather may be very inadequate!!! You may already be running a vacuum pump or other high efficiency system for crank case evacuation I don't know!! But I highly recommend it !

If any one wants to argue the point those are my opinions and you will be arguing with yourself , If any thing I just wrote will have negative consequences to LT1's engine besides $ (cost) Then tell him!!!

Lt1 you may already know all of this?

Chris
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2012, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by americanLT1 View Post
That's one of the first things I thought of so I called Garrett Turbo last week and he asked me a few of questions about my set up, oil pressure, drain line and oil supply. He said the fact that the turbos are new and the motor hasn't even been in boost yet, it's unlikely they are leaking.
Don't get me wrong here, but a "second opinion" is always a good idea. Post your questions on rings/break in/et cetera over at Speed Talk and see what they have to offer on the subject. Yellowbullet also has a dedicated turbo forum where you can get answers from those who do this on a daily basis.

Don't be surprised when they tell you the engine needs to be loaded to get the rings seated properly, as has been said here already. I believe as long as the cylinder finish was correct for the rings that you'll have no problems once you can load the engine sufficiently.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2012, 11:16 AM
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Don't get me wrong here, but a "second opinion" is always a good idea. Post your questions on rings/break in/et cetera over at Speed Talk and see what they have to offer on the subject. Yellowbullet also has a dedicated turbo forum where you can get answers from those who do this on a daily basis.

Don't be surprised when they tell you the engine needs to be loaded to get the rings seated properly, as has been said here already. I believe as long as the cylinder finish was correct for the rings that you'll have no problems once you can load the engine sufficiently.
If the cylinders were prepared with out a torque plate chances are the rings will never seal seen this senario to many times over the years.
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