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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2012, 12:39 PM
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To oil foul the rings while running in would take something like the oil rings on upside down, or some other ring defect.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2012, 12:58 PM
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This is the whole purpose of useing zinc (ZDDP) and moly (Moly disulfude) in the oil for break in.

Prevents ring -cylinder bore scuffing from fuel wash down etc.

Molyslip Canada Inc. :: Molybdenum Lubricants, Performance Lubricants, Copaslip Anti-Seize, EP2 Grease, Wear Reducing Lubricants, Oil Additive

The Moly Slip E oil supplement has both zinc and moly in it.

Your engine may still need more break in running under load to seat the rings.
Check your intake manifold gaskets. May be sucking oil in at the gasket joint.
Should have fired it up with a carb. oh well.

Try the moly slip E. It sure won't slow it down any.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 07-02-2012 at 01:09 PM.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2012, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNC BLOCKS NE View Post
If the cylinders were prepared with out a torque plate chances are the rings will never seal seen this senario to many times over the years.
Do you sell torque plates? Yes their good and very accurate! and you stated that many times! and Cobalts suggestion is a very good one! I dont know why you quoted his post! Unless your trying to teach him about torque plates!!!! Im sure he can teach you! Your posting about torque plates is getting redundant! You should start a thread on the prose of torque plates and Im sure everyone will read it I will even though I already know about them and have used them!



Jester
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2012, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
Do you sell torque plates? Yes their good and very accurate! and you stated that many times! and Cobalts suggestion is a very good one! I dont know why you quoted his post! Unless your trying to teach him about torque plates!!!! Im sure he can teach you! Your posting about torque plates is getting redundant! You should start a thread on the prose of torque plates and Im sure everyone will read it I will even though I already know about them and have used them!



Jester
Never seen a a performance engine with compression seal up with out plate honing plus having sleeves installed.

If your building a performance engine there is only one way to end up with round cylinders once the heads are bolted on and that would be using a plate when plate when honing plus using a good hone.

Here is a perfect example of a wanabe machine shop and wanabe engine builder put together and after 7500 miles still pushing oil out the breatheres here what the owner found HMMMMM





Here is a link on plate honing I did years ago.

Values Of Torque Plate Honing - Team Camaro Tech
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2012, 06:04 PM
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LOL, you kind of proved my point!! I havnt seen anyone post anything against plate honing, and for all I know it may have been done on this engine and probably was? but repeating the same thing over and over is like an old record!
You don't have to prove anything to me or anyone else on here! Ive seen plate honed engines come in and a quick pass with hand hone done because the builder didn't like the cross hatch, that's his prerogative (Ive done it)

Its funny ! You never mentioned hot honing being used! to simulate heat distortion of the cylinders during operating temps,That's even more precise!!!! By the way that's heating the block to temperatures it will be subject too in order to trigger normal distortion of cylinders and torque plate boring and honing while hot!!!! Now maybe I should repeat that a few more times to get my point across!

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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2012, 06:26 PM
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The OP could help here by saying one way or the other if it was honed w/or w/o torque plates. I do recall him saying the bores were parallel to less than a thousandths of an inch, then CNC BLOCKS NE said if that was measured w/o there being a torque plate installed, that the cylinders will be distorted when the heads were installed- or words to that effect. I agree w/this premise, but what's not known is how the measurements were taken (plate/no plate).

In my opinion, the OP might be assuming a lot: that the block was plate honed, and that the cylinders were honed correctly for HF rings. Both critical. Or maybe he knows about the torque plates and just hasn't responded- supposedly the machine shop was up to speed as far as building boosted engines, and certainly that should include plate honing and proper finish for HF rings.

I DO know this: it would be a shame to have invested as much time/money as he has into the block, only to find out some critical element was neglected. But **** happens, unfortunately. I guess time will tell.

painted jester, I recall reading something about blocks being machined w/heated water circulating through it, and it made a small difference as far as measurements cold to hot. But there might be more benefits in leak down, etc. that isn't seen in just bore measurements. Along w/the heated water, there are of course crank caps torqued, oil pumps installed (or a plate to simulate it on wet sump engines), and probably more trickery than that. All well and good for top shelf race engines, but for me (mainly street/strip builds, not all-out comp engines), something I'd not be overly concerned with- especially w/machine shop rates being what they are.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2012, 07:34 PM
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Painted Jester, Thanks for the info but at this point in time it may be to late for additives. I'm using -8 hoses off each valve cover into a catch tank and when there's manifold vacuum the pcv system is operational.
Surprisingly it doesn't seem to have much blow by and doesn't really smoke but I'm not loading it either.

CNC Blocks, you are correct in the fact that after I bolted the heads down I have no clue what affect it had on the bores. I can't even verify the use of a torque plate or the grit of stone that it was honed with because the machine shop that did the work didn't survive the lousy economy and closed last year.

I'm not sure what course of action to take right now as I'm pretty disgusted with this engine.

At this point in time I'll probably work on getting the car assembled to the point of driving it or getting it to a tuner where I can run it on a dyno and load the engine under safer conditions.

Still appreciate the input.

Thanks.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2012, 07:43 PM
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Cobalt: I agree, I was trying to make a point! A top fuel eng isn't the daily grocery getter and a line is drawn how far and how much $ is spent! I wasn't suggesting it should have been done on the O.P.'s engine! Hot block boring and honing is ridiculous for most people even most top end racers don't do it. I was just tired of reading "torque plate honing over and over" I was making a point with an extreme example! Ill apologize for that! I was being childish!

Chris
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2012, 08:18 PM
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Sorry sent it twice

Last edited by painted jester; 07-02-2012 at 08:26 PM.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 07-02-2012, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by americanLT1 View Post
Painted Jester, Thanks for the info but at this point in time it may be to late for additives. I'm using -8 hoses off each valve cover into a catch tank and when there's manifold vacuum the pcv system is operational.
Surprisingly it doesn't seem to have much blow by and doesn't really smoke but I'm not loading it either.

CNC Blocks, you are correct in the fact that after I bolted the heads down I have no clue what affect it had on the bores. I can't even verify the use of a torque plate or the grit of stone that it was honed with because the machine shop that did the work didn't survive the lousy economy and closed last year.

I'm not sure what course of action to take right now as I'm pretty disgusted with this engine.

At this point in time I'll probably work on getting the car assembled to the point of driving it or getting it to a tuner where I can run it on a dyno and load the engine under safer conditions.

Still appreciate the input.

Thanks.

Your being pessimistic, you only have 1/2 hour total run on this engine stationary time ! Your assembly lubes should have good protection for that little bit of time, and you've no boost yet! Drain that enitial break in oil out! That will remove any contaminants that have been washed out of the block and are in the pan. And refill with good oil with good zddp protection or add zddp to a good oil and change the filter! Your ok! dont let worries give you a heart attack And don't pay attention to my comments on hot block boring and honing Ive only witnessed that on a couple of engines Ive been involved with! It wasn't meant for you And the odds are the machine shop you took it to used a torque plate!The owner of the shop should still have your record and bills! He has to keep those for a period of time I think its still 7 years? So try to get a hold of him! If it was a licensed state facility you may get his contact information from the state licensing board or even the city chamber of comers! Im sure he would be glad to give you information.

Chris
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2012, 05:24 AM
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The worst thing that will happen is the rings won't break in, but until the engine is run enough to get them seated, there's no way to say it has a problem or not. In all likelihood you'll be fine, as long as the finish was right for the rings.

Jester, my comments re the hot water deal was just an observation and had no real relevance to the thread.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 07-04-2012, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
The worst thing that will happen is the rings won't break in, but until the engine is run enough to get them seated, there's no way to say it has a problem or not. In all likelihood you'll be fine, as long as the finish was right for the rings.

Jester, my comments re the hot water deal was just an observation and had no real relevance to the thread.

Cobalt: What Im about to write isnt meant for you Im guessing you already know metallurgy by the other posts of yours I red in the past!!

About 10 or twelve years ago I was in a shop doing Machine repair on a mill ! And they did block seasoning (rust, bake and cool ) they left newly cast blocks in the weather for a year before bringing them in to start machining on the race engine! And then would bring them in and prep the block with basic prep machining ( mill deck, etc) before blue print machining then bolt on the deck torque plate and crank plate 2 days before boring and heated the block one day and froze it the next on the 3rd day they would bore and hone on a hot block ( They used the head bolts or stud's that would actually be installed when the engine would be assembled) because different bolts or studs could change distortion! now most shops Ive seen don't bolt deck plates on days before boring! They usually bolt on the torque plate and start boring immediately after!! If you don,t give it a couple of days any shifting wont happen and the torque plate isn't doing its job! its what they call metal memory! On aluminum block seasoning (shake bake & cool) they vibrated the block I think they called it molecular hardening I cant remember why they vibrated them ( then heated & cooled them many times) machined and installed sleeves then Heated and froze Like the other blocks, bolted on the torque plates for 24 hrs ( aluminum blocks only needed the 24 hrs) with the same studs as the engine would be assembled with before boring and honingwith the torque plate

That shows you the extremes some top end racers go to for a little edge!!! Im an old racer and hobbiest now that all seams ridiculous to me for street or bracket racers!

But as I said most machine shops may have deck torque plates and I strongly recommend them ( I don't think their needed on daily grocery getter's or street hobbiest's)!! But I strongly believe that if not installed a couple of days before doing the boring and honing they are not doing what they were designed to do! about the bolts or studs being given to the machine shop For the torque plates that the engine will be assembled with? I don't know about if its fact or not? Ive had many engines torque plate bored and honed and never was asked to supply my fasteners!!!That shop also told me gaskets make a big difference they put the gasket they're going to use under the torque plate and if a different gasket is used in assembly it will change the cylinder distortion??? Maybe someone on here can elaborate on that! No machine shop that I have ever dealt with ever asked what gaskets I was going to run before torque plating my engines!


Chris

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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 07-04-2012, 05:05 PM
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That's interesting.I can see how bolting up the plates ahead of time could help. To professional race engine builders, ANY advantage is big!

I'm sure you can remember how the deal was years ago (before there were aftermarket or 'specialty' factory blocks available like from GMPP, MP, and FRPP). Take a new production block and build it into a tow truck/parts chaser mill and run it like that to "season" the block. Afterwards, the block would be machined/blueprinted before being assembled into a race engine.

Using a new block instead of a high mileage passenger car block was preferred; the seasoned new block would be finished for forged standard bore pistons, and that retained a little more bore thickness over using a used block.

Nowadays, I see little reason not to use torque plates for finish honing, though. Any shop worth their salt should be capable of doing it that way and for the added cost I believe it's a wise investment unless it is a grocery getter being built. But in days gone by, there were some very bad-A engines built that never saw a torque plate, so it just goes to say that there's always more than one way to get the job done!
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 07-04-2012, 10:09 PM
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I've done several dyno breakins on Cummins truck engines, we ran them long enough to get the temp up then started loading them. With in a few minutes we would be pulling full hp. If blow by was still high we would repeat the cycle. The point was to fully load the engine to build boost and seat the rings. With out a load I don't think you will be able to tell anything.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 07-05-2012, 11:40 AM
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[QUOTE=cobalt327;1570897]

I'm sure you can remember how the deal was years ago (before there were aftermarket or 'specialty' factory blocks available like from GMPP, MP, and FRPP). Take a new production block and build it into a tow truck/parts chaser mill and run it like that to "season" the block. Afterwards, the block would be machined/blueprinted before being assembled into a race engine.


Cobalt LOL We did that! and had 3 seasoned blocks in the corner of the shop! And one spare built To take with us!

These new Mexican blocks? Every time I get one and send it for machining I worry (the quality is terrible) most machine shops don't guarantee the bore or deck! Decked one .020" and had a sand cavity had to keep decking till they cut past the flaw! Did another block (brand new) bored .030" And had inclusions in one cylinder and had to sleeve it! Those were fixable but if you order a new block and machine it and somethings in the cast that you cant work around you have a big paper weight that you still have to pay for the machine work on!!

Its funny the (Hecho en Mexico) On the back of the block I want to grind it off it shames me every time I see it. maybe that's the Marine in me or I'm too old to change with the times!!

Chris
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