Rochester Quadrajet 4MV Carburetor: Removal, Disassembly, Rebuild (Rookie Level) - Page 4 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2011, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
Tommy has good eyes!

The retainer collar IS on the PP (below). It has become loose over time, and if too loose, staking it into position might not be a good idea (but it IS an option for a slightly loose retainer), unless a replacement couldn't be found. But Gessler has the split collar type for a couple bucks, so...

At least there's no more wondering on my part whether it used the steel retainer or what. Mystery solved.
Thanks TommyK! Here is another view of the cap raised up:


Not sure how lose is too lose but, you are right. For a couple of dollars, why risk it. It is now on the shopping list.




I also tried taking a picture of the meter rods retainer spring to show what condition it was in... and "lost" it in the process. Whoops... I am sure you can see how bad it looks. Just bent every which way.






On the subject of PP, I saw these hash marks on the tube where the PP goes. Do they mean anything?






-------------------




Going back to a previous post...
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
The jet and rod sizes are stamped into them. The jets have the number on the top surface as you look down at them orientated as if they were installed.

The rods (primary and secondary) have the size stamped onto the rod, you'll need to look for it, possibly use magnification (I do, but my eyes are old).
I tried looking for the stamped numbers and they are hard to see. Taking a picture was even more difficult. It took some heavy editing to bring out the markings. On the jets, the marking is "73". But I can't really make out what it says on the rods, aside from the "3"at the top. "3mm"?







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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2011, 10:51 AM
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The rods look like 38, possibly followed by a "B". The "B" is on the later needles, the earlier needles just had a two digit number on them.

The marks on top the PP cavity is the "staking" that was referred to earlier. It would have helped hold the PP retainer in place.
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Old 02-27-2011, 05:31 PM
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The subject of leaking wells on the Q-jet and what to do about it comes up fairly often.

Shown below are both unused and well seasoned main well "plugs"- like are included in most rebuild kits. The idea is the plug will press against the well bottoms and stop the leakage. Maybe in theory, and maybe for a little while, but it is obviously NOT a permanent fix.

A new plug is on the left, the shriveled up plug on the right was just removed from a Q-jet brought in for a rebuild.



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Old 03-01-2011, 01:01 PM
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Hey Guys,

Sorry that I haven't posted anything. I was away for a week, spent the last week reading Ruggles' book, and this week I'm laid up in bed with the flu.




Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
The subject of leaking wells on the Q-jet and what to do about it comes up fairly often.
In the book, Cliff says: "Simply dabbing epoxy over the leaking plugs does not work as a long term repair. The epoxy eventually comes loose from the aluminum after many heating-up and cooling-down cycles of the engine." (chapter 5, page 71). I of course, have done just that as a precaution since the wells aren't suspected of leaking.

In addition, the book also mentions a leak test for the plugs: "Apply a soap-and-water mixture over the plugs, then introduce high-pressure compressed air in through the front and rear jet openings in the fuel bowl. A small leak shows a tiny stream of bubbles. Large leaks ... are easy to detect!" (chapter 5, page 71).




I did email Cliff regarding the power piston retainer and he sells it as a part of a rebuild kit. Had I not already bought one, I would have ordered his. I will give him a call to see if he sells it individually (the email made no mention of it). If not, I'll order it from Quadrajetparts.com. In the book, Cliff mentions that the power piston retainer can be held down "with a machinist's ruler during carburetor assembly. (chapter 5, page 84).




While reading the book, I realized one of the things I didn't check for was warpage. I had taken some pictures this past weekend of the carburetor as it sits. It seems like there is a gap between the air horn and the fuel bowl in the rear of the carb. The book says this can be fixed using a belt sander (chapter 4, page 68). Anyone feel this carburetor needs to be sanded or is it negligible?






I also made my way over to the "High Performance Modifications" chapter. My rig is in no way setup for high performance nor do I have any such plans for it. But the book does mention that these mods help "improve performance, driveability and fuel economy." (chapter 6, page 88).

One of the mods mentioned is making sure the throttle plates open up a full 90 degrees. Here are pictures of my carb and the secondaries are opening almost 90 degrees. Sufficient enough?





Another mod listed for throttle plates is drilling small holes in them to add additional air at idle. It is mentioned as an alternative to another mod, which is adding an idle bypass air system. But these are not necessary if the idle bypass air system is already in place. (chapter 6, page 95). I need to check to see if this carb has this system already. If not, I may just drill the plates since adding the idle bypass air system requires alot more work and precision.



**All quotes and cited sections are from Cliff Ruggles' "How to Rebuild and Modify Rochester Quadrajet Carburetors", copyright 2006.

Last edited by lt1silverhawk; 03-01-2011 at 01:22 PM. Reason: More info added.
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Old 03-01-2011, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lt1silverhawk
In the book, Cliff says: "Simply dabbing epoxy over the leaking plugs does not work as a long term repair. The epoxy eventually comes loose from the aluminum after many heating-up and cooling-down cycles of the engine." (chapter 5, page 71).
I've been saying that about using JB Weld forever. Then I hear back, "Ruggles uses Marine Tex epoxy". All I know is, epoxy has failed in the past and I will not use it on my carbs. And I'm glad to hear he seems to think that, too.

Quote:
It seems like there is a gap between the air horn and the fuel bowl in the rear of the carb. The book says this can be fixed using a belt sander (chapter 4, page 68). Anyone feel this carburetor needs to be sanded or is it negligible?
I cannot see the gap, so I cannot offer an opinion- but if it's significant, you'll want to either replace parts, or... I suppose sand it down. Although I will readily admit to never having done this. That said, it sounds easy, but somehow I doubt it actually IS easy. At least not to get it perfectly smooth and square. But that could be just me.

In any event, this means removing the down tubes from the airhorn (unless, God forbid, you want to sand on the main body ). Measure their installed height before removing them, and be careful when you remove them.

I don't know what procedure he uses for this. If you would, post what it is. I would insert a solid piece of wire the same size as the ID of the tubes into them so they could be gripped w/o crushing them.

The inner tubes are bottlenecked on the bottom, so you will want to go in from the top w/the wire "reinforcement", should you try to remove them this way. The inners are also small, it may take a bit from a numbered set to do it, or maybe a cut down pin, etc. Make sure the end of the wire extends out of the tubes, after gripping them for removal the wire will be trapped and you'll want to be able to grip the wire for removal.

All that said- unless there is a gap that will not close up when the screws and bolts are tightened, don't worry about it. They mainly will be warped downward at the corners where the long bolts go through the airhorn down to the intake flange. These get overtightened, and the corners will 'droop'. Unless this is bad, I usually do nothing. I have had to VERY carefully tweak the corners back up some- but this always makes me nervous, cast zinc is brittle.

Quote:
One of the mods mentioned is making sure the throttle plates open up a full 90 degrees. Here are pictures of my carb and the secondaries are opening almost 90 degrees. Sufficient enough?
You want them to be 90 degrees. Yours aren't.

Quote:
Another mod listed for throttle plates is drilling small holes in them to add additional air at idle. It is mentioned as an alternative to another mod, which is adding an idle bypass air system.But these are not necessary if the idle bypass air system is already in place. (chapter 6, page 95). I need to check to see if this car has this system already. If not, I may just drill the plates since adding the idle bypass air system requires alot more work and precision.
Do not drill the throttle plates unless as a last resort. If your cam isn't radical (I don't recall any specs on your engine, sorry), this won't be an issue anyway. The more duration/overlap, the more need there is for the bypass air, but there are other ways besides drilling the plates to accomplish this, same as a Holley.

I got a chuckle out of using a machinist rule to hold the PP down in position while reassembling the top of the carb to the body.

My thoughts on this are that it's bad enough already- you have to keep the gasket in position while the return spring of the accelerator pump piston is fighting to extend, plus aligning the down tubes into their proper positions, and at the same time you're aiming the pump through the hole in the airhorn, etc.

I would do most anything to not add yet another procedure to all that- you'd be running short of hands, I think! lol
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2011, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I've been saying that about using JB Weld forever. Then I hear back, "Ruggles uses Marine Tex epoxy". All I know is, epoxy has failed in the past and I will not use it on my carbs. And I'm glad to hear he seems to think that, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyK
BTW he recommends Devcon Marine-Tex epoxy as the only permanent well plug sealing material he has found.
I list these two quotes only because two different views have been given by two members in this particular thread. Two clear up any confusion, I'll mention what I have found: although Ruggles makes no mention of Marine Tex in the book, he certainly carries it as a part of the Bottom Plug Kit. He also recommends it on his forum. So although he is using epoxy, it is conjunction with the screw-in plugs.




------------------




Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I cannot see the gap, so I cannot offer an opinion- but if it's significant, you'll want to either replace parts, or... I suppose sand it down. Although I will readily admit to never having done this. That said, it sounds easy, but somehow I doubt it actually IS easy. At least not to get it perfectly smooth and square. But that could be just me.

In any event, this means removing the down tubes from the airhorn (unless, God forbid, you want to sand on the main body ). Measure their installed height before removing them, and be careful when you remove them.
The gap seems very small, so much so that the camera may not even pick it up. I went back and reread the section on sanding and machining. The airhorn and the base plate can be sanded down "to conform to the main body and prevent leaks at the top gasket." (chapter 4, page 68). The book also mentions that the main body can be machined flat, but it "lowers the power piston the same amount that is taken off the main body and can affect carburetor function." This isn't considered cost-effective unless it is a rare or valuable carburetor. (chapter 4, page 68).




Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I don't know what procedure he uses for this. If you would, post what it is. I would insert a solid piece of wire the same size as the ID of the tubes into them so they could be gripped w/o crushing them.

The inner tubes are bottlenecked on the bottom, so you will want to go in from the top w/the wire "reinforcement", should you try to remove them this way. The inners are also small, it may take a bit from a numbered set to do it, or maybe a cut down pin, etc. Make sure the end of the wire extends out of the tubes, after gripping them for removal the wire will be trapped and you'll want to be able to grip the wire for removal.
I am confused on this one. Are you taking about the brass tubes in the air horn? I didn't find a procedure for those.




Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
All that said- unless there is a gap that will not close up when the screws and bolts are tightened, don't worry about it. They mainly will be warped downward at the corners where the long bolts go through the airhorn down to the intake flange. These get overtightened, and the corners will 'droop'. Unless this is bad, I usually do nothing. I have had to VERY carefully tweak the corners back up some- but this always makes me nervous, cast zinc is brittle.
To my untrained eyes, I'd say the gap is very minor so I won't worry about it.




---------------




Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
You want them to be 90 degrees. Yours aren't.
Alright, time to do some linkage bendin'.




Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
Do not drill the throttle plates unless as a last resort. If your cam isn't radical (I don't recall any specs on your engine, sorry), this won't be an issue anyway. The more duration/overlap, the more need there is for the bypass air, but there are other ways besides drilling the plates to accomplish this, same as a Holley.
The engine is a bone stock, crate 350, so nothing special or radical here.




Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I got a chuckle out of using a machinist rule to hold the PP down in position while reassembling the top of the carb to the body.

My thoughts on this are that it's bad enough already- you have to keep the gasket in position while the return spring of the accelerator pump piston is fighting to extend, plus aligning the down tubes into their proper positions, and at the same time you're aiming the pump through the hole in the airhorn, etc.
I agree. The retainer on my particular carb is no good and I will buy the bushing. But for future reference, I do want to mention that I was able to hold it in place using the gasket between the air horn and the main body. Ruggles seems to be doing the same thing in the picture accompanying the procedure in the book. (chapter 5, page 84).




Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I would do most anything to not add yet another procedure to all that- you'd be running short of hands, I think! lol
Lol! Point taken!
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2011, 11:07 AM
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**CORRECTIONS**

I obviously misread the section quoted below. cobalt327, you were talking about the tubes in the airhorn. The books does not offer a procedure for removing them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
In any event, this means removing the down tubes from the airhorn (unless, God forbid, you want to sand on the main body ). Measure their installed height before removing them, and be careful when you remove them.

I don't know what procedure he uses for this. If you would, post what it is. I would insert a solid piece of wire the same size as the ID of the tubes into them so they could be gripped w/o crushing them.

The inner tubes are bottlenecked on the bottom, so you will want to go in from the top w/the wire "reinforcement", should you try to remove them this way. The inners are also small, it may take a bit from a numbered set to do it, or maybe a cut down pin, etc. Make sure the end of the wire extends out of the tubes, after gripping them for removal the wire will be trapped and you'll want to be able to grip the wire for removal.
Also, I did not give due due credit in the last post for the quotes so here it is: **All quotes and cited sections are from Cliff Ruggles' "How to Rebuild and Modify Rochester Quadrajet Carburetors", copyright 2006.


No more reading technical stuff while sick with the flu. Lesson learned.




---------------




In the book, Ruggles really stresses installation of primary shaft bushings:
Quote:
"A must for all rebuilt Quadrajets, installing primary shaft bushings reduces side play at the primary shaft. Leakage at the primary shaft is a big problem with used carburetors. It not only makes tuning nearly impossible, but it also allows unfiltered air to enter the engine. A custom self-guiding drill bit is used to open up the shaft bore in the base plate. A bronze bushing coating with Red Loctite is then driven in place." (chapter 5, page 73).
This bushing kit is available on his website for $59.95 + $6.50 S/H as of this writing.

I unfortunately do not know if my carburetor is suffering from any leakage. But regardless, is this a worthwhile procedure, especially considering the cost? I hope to talk to Ruggles about this over the phone once I am better, but I was curious as to what others have to say.




**All quotes and cited sections are from Cliff Ruggles' "How to Rebuild and Modify Rochester Quadrajet Carburetors", copyright 2006.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2011, 12:06 PM
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The primary bushing kit is another mod that I put into the "only if another base plate cannot be found or it's rare carb" category. For that much money, a guy could prolly find two or three cores that need nothing done to the primary throttle bores. Now, if cost isn't a primary consideration, for sure go ahead and do it. Hell, RPD should have installed bushings from the get-go, IMHO. Secondary shaft wear hasn't been an issue w/any of the carbs I've seen.

Whether or not the wear is going to cause idle problems (at speeds above an idle, the shaft play is not a consideration) depends on just how significant the wear actually is. This can be judged by if the primary blade on the throttle linkage (left) side of the carb can touch the throttle bore, and/or by how well the carb will hold a steady idle, w/o it 'hunting' or being erratic.

A lot depends on how the return spring was set up. If the spring pulled rearward (same direction that the throttle cable pulls) from the lower part of the throttle arm, wear can occur within the life of the engine it was installed on because both the throttle linkage AND the spring is working together to cause twice the wear. But if the return spring was hooked to the upper throttle arm and was attached to a bracket forward of the carb, this will act to offset each other and the wear will be less.

As far as milling the main body, the boosters are above the plane of the gasket surface and they are not removable. So milling the body would be a machine shop-type op, as far as I'm concerned- I cannot envision doing this on a belt sander w/any real hope of success. In any event, it's going to be the airhorn that's warped in the majority of cases, anyway.
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Old 03-14-2011, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
A lot depends on how the return spring was set up. If the spring pulled rearward (same direction that the throttle cable pulls) from the lower part of the throttle arm, wear can occur within the life of the engine it was installed on because both the throttle linkage AND the spring is working together to cause twice the wear. But if the return spring was hooked to the upper throttle arm and was attached to a bracket forward of the carb, this will act to offset each other and the wear will be less.
Going by the pictures of the carb as it sat in the truck, the springs are setup for a forward pull and seem to be in good condition.




--------------------




Last week, I called up Ruggles and ordered the parts from him. Very nice guy to talk to and, of course informative. I asked him about some of the discrepancies between my carb and what is provided in the decoding info. Ruggles said that the divorced choke carbs were used on the trucks until 1978, that's why some of the parts are listed for older models.

I went ahead ordered the power piston retainer, the ros retaining clip and the accelerator pump. The parts showed up by Thursday.

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Old 03-17-2011, 09:22 AM
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- Throttle Body Linkage -

I went ahead and bent the tabs on the throttle linkage so the secondary plates open up a full 90 degrees. Look ok?

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Old 03-18-2011, 01:26 AM
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That's nice lt1silverhawk! Good progress of your project. More luck for it.
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Old 03-18-2011, 01:57 PM
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you take very good pictures. Better than the ones I took of my carb.
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Old 03-18-2011, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emazingli
That's nice lt1silverhawk! Good progress of your project. More luck for it.
Thank you! I really appreciate your encouragement.




Quote:
Originally Posted by silentpoet
you take very good pictures. Better than the ones I took of my carb.
Thanks! The tip about taking good pictures was given early on so I am making sure to that. Plus, a few minutes on the photo editor (Photoscape) to brighten, crop and combine helps alot too.
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Old 03-18-2011, 11:52 PM
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- Power Piston Retainer and Rod Retainer Clip Installation -

I finally tackled the power piston retainer and rod retainer clip today, which arrived last week. The rod retainer was fairly easy but the piston retainer was not a perfect fit right out of the bag. First, I had to break the old retainer. After I slipped on the new "split" type, I found that it was just a bit too large. After failing to cut off a piece of it with a knife, I ended up sanding down one side of the opening until it was perfect fit. Might even be a bit too snug.

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Old 03-19-2011, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lt1silverhawk
After failing to cut off a piece of it with a knife, I ended up sanding down one side of the opening until it was perfect fit. Might even be a bit too snug.
Just be sure that when it's all said and done that there's positively no friction from the retainer on the PP shaft itself. It has to be absolutely free to move w/o any hindrance.

The throttle blade correction looks spot-on. I like the "patriotic" look of the retainer and accelerator pump piston assembly! But seriously, those are said to be among the best available.
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