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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2012, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Surfer
Did you see this thread?
Questions on motor oil

And this link was posted showing Mobile 1 15w-50 was intended for flat tappet?
Questions on motor oil

Not sure how well a SBC will digest 15w-50 oil though. You do have other options for flat tappet specific oil though.
Morning Silver Surfer:
Here are the articles from Joe Gibbs Racing and the oddities of mixing zddp with other oils....
http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/tra.../weartest.html
http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/tra...ationguide.htm
http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/tra...oiloldcar.html
http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/tra...sdetergent.htm

This is an exact quote from Joe Gibbs site:
"For example, using the system of Engine Assembly Grease followed by the BR Break-In oil and then using XP1 Synthetic Racing Oil, allowed Joe Gibbs Racing to double flat-tappet lifter life from 600 miles to 1200 miles!"

If that is all the oils of today can do, than it is in my BEST INTEREST to study what I need to do, to install a HYD. roller cam and forget about all these oil additives...Outside of getting the cylinders to seal correctly, I do not have to buy additives, numerous filter changes and worry about cam lifter failure...
Not worth it, with what the oil company's and the EPA did~!
Also, since I do believe in conspiracies and the fact GM and Chrysler did sink at least once; This is a great way to get rid of old cars forcing people to spend money on either a new motor from the dealers, or more precisely, purchase a new car to keep those Executives richer and us poorer~!
Just my thoughts on America today...Screwing the little man~!

But thanks for your interest in trying to find a solution to the OIL/EPA conspiracies~!

BTW: This reminds me what they did to food canning back in the late 60's to mid 70's or so...That is when they started reducing as an example Spaghetti sauce in the bottle; It used to be tomato paste or sauce and then spices then water...Now it is Corn Syrup, tomato paste, spices and water...They ripped off the American people, by cheating them out of the real ingredients that promoted good health...Now, we have numerous problems with diabetes and people being over weight, because there are no nutrients in the food we eat, causing us to eat more~! That is a great way to keep the Pharmaceutical Industry Rich, Fat and happy at the cost of our health and loss of money out of our pockets....Just me ranting~!

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Last edited by Dannyringo; 04-09-2012 at 11:15 AM.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2012, 11:46 AM
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Wait hang on a sec...according to that info you posted the life of a flat tappet lifter is 600 miles? I am at work so I don't have time to read all that info you posted yet. But that seems crazy since flat tappets were successfully used since the 1980's. Yes I know the oil formulation has changed, but if Mr Joe Gibbs is touting his awesome sauce oil is good for 600 miles...wow
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Surfer
Wait hang on a sec...according to that info you posted the life of a flat tappet lifter is 600 miles? I am at work so I don't have time to read all that info you posted yet. But that seems crazy since flat tappets were successfully used since the 1980's. Yes I know the oil formulation has changed, but if Mr Joe Gibbs is touting his awesome sauce oil is good for 600 miles...wow
perhaps you did not get the full gist of his statement. He said that with their oil they were able to double the life of their flat tappet cams from 600 miles and wearing out(without his products), to 1200 miles...When you get time to check the links they used his break in oil on 3 sets of cams then used 3 different oils after the break in period and showed what happened after breakin....The pictures speak for themselves with the amount of wear using the Chevy SPI oil... The lifters look fubar~! That was with only 4 hrs, run time at 4,500rpm~! Then they did it with Synthetic oil and examined the lifters, then with their oil..

Flat tappet Hyd. cams have been used since at least the 60's through the late 80's. And prior to this they drove the cars a zillion miles...Now, according to his site, they are only going to last a short time, even doing oil filter changes every 100 miles, then pulling and changing the oil every 500 miles?
with a life expectancy of only a couple thousand miles? Is this what we have come to? Or am I missing something...I sat and read his site for several hours and finally came to the conclusion a roller was the way to go...Maybe I am missing something...
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Old 04-09-2012, 01:43 PM
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just in the short time I have posted the links they are already 404'd~!
What is going on? Who is killing this information? and what is their motive for killing this information?
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-09-2012, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannyringo
Hello:
Well, I learned something new yesterday that scared the living heck out of me...I bought the Lunati 60101LK cam for my rv that I plan on replacing the motor in...It appears that I lost some cam lobes with the missing I hear in the old motor, as well as blowing smoke out the tail pipes (175,000miles+)...I lost oil pressure last year and as a bandaid, I replaced the oil pump with a new HV melling...That did not correct the problem with low oil pressure once warmed up...
This past Feb. after traveling about 500 miles round trip, I heard a dreaded knocking sound that reminded me of a rod knock, but it sounded much higher and perhaps piston slap, or a piston pin knocking...Either way, it disappeared when I drove it 5 hrs later about 2 min. after starting it...It reappeared the next day when restarting it at a Auto Zone with a tech at hand, then disappeared after the 2nd heard knock...The tech agreed that it might be a piston, since the sound was near the top of a motor...

Either way, yesterday I learned that all of today's oil has limited zinc and other anti-friction additives in them and this is the sole reason why 1 in 10 motors upon break in fail~! This is according to Joe Gibbs racing...According to his site, if a person uses his breakin oil, they would have a better chance of a 1 in 40 chance of a hyd. flat tappet cam wiping out...
Although the odds are better, after reading his information and with the fact that I travel a lot in my Rv, I do not think it wise to go with a Hyd, flat tappet cam anymore, since I would have to have an oil after break in with high amounts of zinc, phosphorus and sulfur and low amounts of Calcium, which Calcium is a detergent used in today's oil... It is Calcium that washes away the anti-friction additives in oil and leaves the metal bare, causing extreme wear of the cam lobes....This is unacceptable in a pre-roller cam motor...
I would be curious how many people have already lost their motors because of this...Mine took 2 years for the lobes to wipe, now the motor is junk...

So, currently I am looking at two cams, one by Howards and the other by Lunati...I think Howards is going to be the winner for a Hyd. roller cam...

Any thoughts on this oil dilemma from the school of hard knocks and how it tore up your motor and learning about the additives being taken out of the oil you used?

I understand that at the end of 2011, they took most, or all of the zinc out of the oils currently on the shelves at your local big box stores, as well as big box auto parts stores...all because they wanted Cat converters to last 125,000 miles, or more and that zinc coated over time the platinum in the converters which then were either replaced, or illegally removed permanently.
Any thoughts?
This has been coming for a long time, it is the reason that the OEMs started switching to roller cams in the mid 1980's and finished up by 1996.

For many years an under the radar agreement left conventional levels of ZDDP in the 15-40, 20-40 and 20-50 weight oils especially those marked for Diesel engines. But now 25 years after the start of roller tappet conversions, that's changing.

Actually modern F/T cams and tappets are being treated to various surface hardening efforts and really aren't suffering failure rates any worse that pre roller history. GM and other engines that didn't use a thrust plate to retain the cam's fore and aft movements clearly suffer worse than engines that positively prevented movements. GM was repeatably sued for cam wear issues clear back to the 1960's and 70's so this isn't anything new. I started using a thrust button in regular flat tappet builds 35-40 years ago and the lobe/lifter failure rate went to zero.

From a spring stand point you're somewhat damned if you don't go to a stiffer spring and damned if you do. A soft spring lets the valve train bounce either from spring harmonics or slight over revving which bangs the lifter into the lobe. A stiff spring stops this but places a higher load on the lobe to lifter interface all the time. I think a 100 pound spring with the valve closed isn't enough. For a mild cam I like to see something more like 120-130 with a damper. Even for a mild engine I like to see a spring with a flat wound damper as this soaks up any random harmonics in the spring without having to use excessive spring pressure to shove these events above the usual rev range. You just have to crowd the advantages on your side when doing a build.

Obviously converting a non roller block to a roller is a time consuming and expensive undertaking. But with the availability of roller blocks with roller cams or of blocks that are machined for roller cams though may use a flat tappet (like GM trucks from 1985 to 1995) that include the machined provisions for a roller cam, there really isn't any excuse to fight the flat tappet wars unless you're building a class race engine that dictates a flat tappet by rule.

Bogie
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by oldbogie
This has been coming for a long time, it is the reason that the OEMs started switching to roller cams in the mid 1980's and finished up by 1996.

For many years an under the radar agreement left conventional levels of ZDDP in the 15-40, 20-40 and 20-50 weight oils especially those marked for Diesel engines. But now 25 years after the start of roller tappet conversions, that's changing.

Actually modern F/T cams and tappets are being treated to various surface hardening efforts and really aren't suffering failure rates any worse that pre roller history. GM and other engines that didn't use a thrust plate to retain the cam's fore and aft movements clearly suffer worse than engines that positively prevented movements. GM was repeatably sued for cam wear issues clear back to the 1960's and 70's so this isn't anything new. I started using a thrust button in regular flat tappet builds 35-40 years ago and the lobe/lifter failure rate went to zero.

From a spring stand point you're somewhat damned if you don't go to a stiffer spring and damned if you do. A soft spring lets the valve train bounce either from spring harmonics or slight over revving which bangs the lifter into the lobe. A stiff spring stops this but places a higher load on the lobe to lifter interface all the time. I think a 100 pound spring with the valve closed isn't enough. For a mild cam I like to see something more like 120-130 with a damper. Even for a mild engine I like to see a spring with a flat wound damper as this soaks up any random harmonics in the spring without having to use excessive spring pressure to shove these events above the usual rev range. You just have to crowd the advantages on your side when doing a build.

Obviously converting a non roller block to a roller is a time consuming and expensive undertaking. But with the availability of roller blocks with roller cams or of blocks that are machined for roller cams though may use a flat tappet (like GM trucks from 1985 to 1995) that include the machined provisions for a roller cam, there really isn't any excuse to fight the flat tappet wars unless you're building a class race engine that dictates a flat tappet by rule.

Bogie
Hi Bogie:
The springs are Comp Cams 981 springs and they are 1.250S = 110# @ 1.700” / .520” max with 370#spring rate...And they do have a damper...
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Old 04-10-2012, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Surfer
Wait hang on a sec...according to that info you posted the life of a flat tappet lifter is 600 miles? I am at work so I don't have time to read all that info you posted yet. But that seems crazy since flat tappets were successfully used since the 1980's. Yes I know the oil formulation has changed, but if Mr Joe Gibbs is touting his awesome sauce oil is good for 600 miles...wow
That's 600 miles in Cup racing with high spring pressures.... just a little different working conditions than a grocery getter.

Gibbs got into the oil biz when his Shell oil sponsorship in the Busch cars went away... and, with it, went the special oils Shell supplied to their sponsored teams.
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Old 04-10-2012, 09:38 AM
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I just contacted Comp Cams and they are using these springs on their Xtreme Energy™, XR264HR Cam ...This cam is identical to the Howards HRS-CL110235-12

Here are the cam spec's for both cams:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HRS-CL110235-12/

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=157&sb=2

If you look at the bottom of this page, it gives u the additional parts that are needed and you will see they are using the CC-981 springs...

http://www.compperformancegroupstore...ry_Code=RFHRXE
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Old 04-10-2012, 09:45 AM
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I have a hydraulic flat tappet cam in my 354 Hemi and have no intent on changing anything. Thousands of stock cars and drag cars, as well as street modified cars, are running engines with flat tappets with zero problems.

The key is BREAK-In oils... after the cam has broken in, and the engine run for sometime with a high zinc oil, you can get away with an oil with 1000 PPM of zddp... Once that zddp become a phosphorus coating on the cam, bearings, etc. it will stay there as long as you avoid the SM oils (which have high calcium which east away the phosphorus coating).

The new SM oils have a minimum of 400 ppm... not enough... but they have a maximum of 600 ppm... still not enough. But the feds only require low zinc levels in 10W30 oil and thinner... look at the API label on any 10W40...it will not be an SM oil. Likely an SJ oil...higher zinc levels.

Spending extra $$$ on a roller simply to try to avoid a potential (and avoidable) problem is wasting money...IMHO of course.
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Old 04-10-2012, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannyringo
just in the short time I have posted the links they are already 404'd~!
What is going on? Who is killing this information? and what is their motive for killing this information?
I think the mods considered some info "advertising"... that Gibbs info is good stuff... not sure why they would think it's any different than other posts on the site...
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Old 04-10-2012, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Mojo56
I think the mods considered some info "advertising"... that Gibbs info is good stuff... not sure why they would think it's any different than other posts on the site...
Mojo: between you, Inspector1 and Bogie, I pay attention to what you guys say. I agree with you on the extra cost of the cam and parts..I thought that the Lunati 60101LK cam was about perfect for the motor I intend to build...Mind you, I based this off of an Army combat vehicle...That vehicle was the M-114 Recon Scout tracked carrier...It weighted 12,000# and ran at that time a 283, or 327 corvette motor in them...All I remember, is the motor rumbled and they smartly moved from a dead stop...So, I based video's I found on You Tube, since it has only been almost 40 years ago for those memories...

Inspector 1 swears by using Hyd. Roller Cams, to avoid having a cam failure. I also understand about Joe Gibbs reving up to 9,000rpm with his motors...

I guess since we are in this economic situation with no guarantee of what the future will bring us, I think Inspector1, makes some valid points, in not taking the chance...The last motor I built was before my stroke's and that was in the 80's...I have had problems with forgetfullness, as well as memory loss and sometimes, I wonder why I said what I said...things just come out wrong...But that is the price of having strokes...I am lucky to be alive, walking and talking...
I think that is the reason why I am looking at the HYD. Roller Cam..I think in the long run, in the event the oil company's again switch things around, I will not have to play their games and come up with solutions, like everyone is doing now with additives...

Lastly, it was Joe Gibbs site that 404'd the articles of the oil comparison charts they did on various manufactures and the levels of ZDDP they had in them...Lucas break in oil had the highest levels of zddp, but also had the highest levels of calcium in it too. All that information is now 404'd from their website, as well as one other document...I must of ruffled someone's Wheaties with yellow milk~!

Again, I have not made a decision on which way to go...I already have the Lunati cam and lifers sitting here....I guess it is all about what Dirty Harry said in his movie: "Do you feel lucky, punk? " Lately, NO, I haven't....
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2012, 12:11 PM
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I use non-synthetic Valvoline VR1. It has 1400 ppm zinc and 1300 ppm phosphorus specifically for flat tappet engines. VR1 comes in several weights and in either synthetic or non-synthetic.

I believe 1200 ppm is generally considered minimum ppm zinc for flat tappet engines.
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Axis_of_Evil
I use non-synthetic Valvoline VR1. It has 1400 ppm zinc and 1300 ppm phosphorus specifically for flat tappet engines. VR1 comes in several weights and in either synthetic or non-synthetic.

I believe 1200 ppm is generally considered minimum ppm zinc for flat tappet engines.
I'm curious on how many miles ur running the motor before you change oil?
Also, if it is a daily driver? If it was, how often would oil have to be changed?
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66GMC
Excellent point in regards to reading OLD information.

Using RotellaT 15w40 diesel oil (SH) *used to be* a viable work-around, before they legislated the required use of catastrophic converters on diesel engines too.
After doing my research, I see you had the wiped lobe syndrome on a 454 build...Did you ever go with the roller cam in that motor, or did you do another Hyd. flat tappet cam after your heart was broken?
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Dannyringo
I'm curious on how many miles ur running the motor before you change oil?
Also, if it is a daily driver? If it was, how often would oil have to be changed?
It's a new flat tappet motor from Smeding Performance, SBC 383 mild performance. I haven't changed the oil yet. The car is a work in progress and will be a daily driver.

I'll probably change the oil every 4000 to 5000.
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